“Veterans of Gaza’s 2019 anti-Hamas street demonstrations, for example, braved gunfire and prison to make their voices heard, but received neither support nor solidarity from the outside world.”
—————————————————-
Yeah sorry I don’t believe you. I only have one Muslim friend and she is the nicest girl you will ever meet and she is a hardcore antisemite.
When we hang out with my Jewish friends she is fine. It’s not genocidal hatred. But she’s 100% an antisemite.
Anyone who tells you Muslims can live alongside Jews is a liar. Maybe only a small percentage of Muslims are the ones who put the Jewish baby in the oven (which happened) after raping and beheading the concert attendee (which happened). You still cannot have Muslims and Jews living together. The Muslims won’t allow it. You can see it in their eyes.
It’s gross and creepy and it’s why I am so casual about alleged anti-Black racism in America because I’ve never actually seen any anti-Black racism ever in my life. But I *have* seen how Muslims hate Jews. I’ve seen it personally. I’ve seen how normal average everyday Muslims hate Jews and it is disgusting. This is bred into them.
Kev, she may be the sweetest person you know but when she is with her Islamic pals they talk about not only killing the Jews but ridding the world of infidels and that is you and me Pal.
You’re so correct; when you are taught to hate a race from birth; you’re just not a nice and sweet person. Get away from her, she’s probably infectious.
It is in the Islamic psyche to hate non-Islamists. The Koran teaches them this. The Israel problem will never go away.
If you don't believe me, just look at what Isis did. They murdered all non-Sunnis. Look at what the Islamic invaders did in India in the 13th century. They slaughtered everybody they could get their hands on.
Tens of millions of Indians died at the hands of the religion of peace.
It is disturbing that almost all the posts about muslim hatred of Jews fails to mention that, historically (that is, prior to 1948), Muslims were fairly tolerant of Christians and Jews. They may have been taxed more than Muslims, but they were never persecuted the way that Jews were persecuted in Europe, by Christians, for centuries. The Zionist movement was born in Europe as a reaction to Christian persecution and rabid anti-semitism that revealed that, no matter how hard Jews tried to assimilate, they would always be outsiders and vulnerable to the hatred of Jews (by Christians). The hatred of Jews culminated with the holocaust, but the movement to create a Jewish state dates back to the end of the nineteenth century. The current enmity of Muslims towards Jews is from 1948 up to the present (and perhaps earlier, beginning with the migration of Jews to the Holy Land and the buying of large parcels of land.) It's too bad that the Jews were not given a slice of Germany after WW2 to establish their homeland, but it was much more convenient to throw the Palestinians under the bus. And besides, European Christians were more than happy to have Jews leave Europe. As the saying goes: The arabs are paying for Christian sins.
I don’t understand. Who are those mysterious “native” Palestinians thrown under the bus?
At the time of the first mandate (1917-1918), Palestine was a mere name of the region in the Mediterranean, akin of “Midwest” or “Siberia”.
The settlers who started populating it were largely misplaced Muslims after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.
All those Muslim refugees fled from what is now Eastern Europe (Balkans, Bulgaria) to what was left of the Ottoman Empire (what is now Turkey) and Turkey directed them to that unpopulated, deserted area, named Palestine.
These “Palestinians” are the same settlers, from approximately the same time period, as the Jews, only of different religion. Both groups did with the region what they could in the same time frame. One has industry, technology and agriculture, another - militant tunnels, collapsing infrastructure fully dependent of its neighbor and an elected terror organization for its leadership. 🤷♀️
It wasn't Turkey directing immigrants to the Palestine region after 1917. The Ottoman Empire was an ally of Germany in WW1. The Palestine region was lost militarily to the Allies in 1917. Without going into complex history, through the political instrument known as the Balfour Declarations the UK created The British Mandate of Palestine with the intention of encouraging the settlement of European Jews. A lot happened up until 1948 but the concept of a jewish homeland and moves to create it started in 1917.
From whatever historic interpretations we look at it, Kaiser or Pasha, the bottom line is that the last time native Arab population was found in Palestine was before the First Crusade, in 1099. Then for a Millenium mixed bag of ethnicities, populated Palestinians, but not Árabs.
And unless we are ready to engage in repatriation game for those Arabs “oppressed” by Crusaders back in 1099… then our modern day Palestinians are still the descendants of the settlers, just like the modern Israeli. Both are settlers.
The nuances provided by your input didn’t change that.
I agree with that and wholly acknowledge that a sizable percentage of ethnically Arab peoples are indigenuous to the region along with more recent settler populations of both Arab and Israeli. To suggest they should be dispossessed of either their history or land rights isn't my intention. The more fascinating question is how to get two groups of people who have been able to maintain millennia long strong separate identities, resistant to integration, how to get them to live in proximity without endless hostility. In modernity we are experimenting with different solutions that may have been tried in the past, ideas that have evolved from the Wests success with humanitarian enlightenment principles. On a philosophical level I don't see it working and I'm a pessimist. For the Western politicians and elites who are indoctrinated with modernist, post structuralist liberal thought it is apparent they struggle with the concept that the East doesn't think like us and that genocide isn't anathema to Islam.
There was a comment in the WSJ yesterday where the guy said, and I quote, “Protestant theology teaches that the Second Coming will happen when Israel wins the war, and that’s why we support Israel.” The last time I posted something like this here I got jumped on big time, but then boom! It shows up in the WSJ comments. It’s a thing.
No different than the Christian Zionists of today, who believe that the culminating effect of Israelis expelling all arabs and uniting the lands of Israel will lead to the second coming (of course, the end result of such a scenario is that all the Jews and Muslims (and all other non-Christians) will realize that Jesus is the true God, will convert to Christianity, or be burned alive). I have always wondered, when Jesus returns and rules for a thousand years from Jerusalem, what form of government will he uphold? A benevolent dictatorship? Jeffersonian democracy? Marxism? This is, after all, still planet earth, right, with all the foibles and vulnerabilities of human beings?
Hmmm.... no. The old 'if only it wasn't for the state of Israel' shtick is horribly incorrect. In order to put forward your deeply flawed theory you have skipped over a lot of history and omitted numerous details.This Substack usually attracts people who do at least a little more research than you have here, and who tend to avoid ignorant tropes such as the myth of the peaceful Muslims victimized by the mere founding of the state of Israel.
If you've never read about the unbroken Jewish presence in the area that is now Israel, go do so now. If you've never heard of Arab pogroms against the Jews during the Ottoman Empire or in British Palestine, go learn something. If you don't know about the pogroms and expulsions of Jews in North African and Arab countries, that's more reading for you. How about Hitler's good friend and consultant, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem? Ring some bells? You have an awful lot to catch up on. I suggest you hurry up before you're tempted to respond here with more ignorant blather.
The most embarrassing though, has to be your assertion that 'Palestinian's' were thrown under the bus during the founding of Israel. The who? Considering the area at the time was made up of Jews and Arabs and the Arabs were granted the far larger and better portion of land in Transjordan that became Jordan, I'm not sure which 'Palestinians' you're referring to considering that it was largely Jews who were referred to as Palestinians up till Israel's founding. The Arabs, a large contingent of whom had migrated to Israel in the previous century,, were originally from neighboring states as their last names attest.
Palestinians as a distinct people claiming indigeneity and entitlement to the land, only became an exclusively arab-identifying group when Yassir Arafat co-opted this title in the late 1960's as an extension of an arab chauvinism characterized by constant attempts to wipe Israel from the face of the earth since its founding purely because it was governed by Jews. The PLO have been replaced by Hamas whose charter too is to kill all Jews and wipe Israel off the map so as to establish a caliphate inits place.
Arafat, whose family ancestry was Egyptian, and the 'Palestinian Liberation Organization' set out to delegitimize Israel through militant terror tactics against Jews worldwide but also against Arabs who sold their homes to Jews, whom they would shoot.
Arafat's public relations tactics brought the world the notion of the victimized Palestinian and set in motion the myth that as long as Jews had a tiny sliver of land in the middle east, no Palestinian-identifying arab could feel free. Foreign aid flowed in. Arafat became a billionaire and the newly identifying Palestinian people, displaced through wars the arabs started, and seeing none of the money the PLO pocketed, became eternal refugees; political pawns in a now 75 year ruse to convince the world that the founding of Israel was a nakba- a disaster. Meanwhile the spigot of public sympathy for 'oppressed' Palestinians flows continuing to enrich only Palestinian leadership as has become tradition.
And yet e, the 25% of the Israeli population who are arabs, have full rights as Israeli citizens and have more human rights and protections than Arabs in any of the other countries in the middle east.
I am just skimming the surface here because I dont have time to conduct a comprehensive history lesson. But please do more research before commenting further.
The Jewish community is experiencing hate and intolerance at alarming levels and assertions such as yours work to excuse and downplay arab and Muslim antisemitism which is then used to justify violence against Jews.
The first step of the terror apologist is to find ways to blame the victim. This you have achieved in the guise of having some sort of expertise on the subject by which you offer faux- evidence of 'Palestinians' being shortchanged during the execution of the partition plan when in reality, it was the Israelis who received less land than promised, a large part of which was barren swampland. What they have done with it is nothing short of miraculous.
Actually the Arabs made an alliance with the Nazis that predates 1948. The Palestinian (?) Grand Mufti met with Hitler. This didn't JUST happen in 1948. Like, wow one day the Arabs woke up hating Jews. And there was a war in 1948 trying to exterminate the new Jewish state - a tiny sliver of land surrounded by Muslim nations. So that didn't come from no where. Yes Christian antisemitism was imported into the Middle East. But the arabs aren't "paying the price" for Christian sins. The middle east is entirely Islamic. What price are they paying? Their own. This is their world. And let's not forget the millions of refugees that have fled their own Islamic nations in hope of a better life, not to mention the millions killed, yet somehow Israel's the big baddie here for wanting national security in a region entirely murderous towards their existence. Your view of history and of the region is skewed.
Also- The charter of Hamas refers to the Elders of Zion which of course is a horrific antisemitic text originating from Russia then used by Nazis and conspiracy theorists now.
While it is true that the Ottoman Empire was somewhat tolerant of Christians and Jews, even if only as second-class subjects, that tolerance was not especially shared by their fellow Muslim Arabs. The brutal Turkish regime cynically pitted the Jews, Arabs, and Christians against each other, all the while suppressing the centuries-old Arab enmity toward the Jews.
Let there be no misunderstanding re the historical context. Finding the Jews ungovernable, the Romans forcibly dispersed most of them from what we now call Israel or Palestine in the second century, leaving to their governance a populace that gradually became chiefly Christianized. Arab tribes started conquering the region in the 7th century, leading to its Arabization and eventual Islamization and causing many indigenous Christians to convert. Centuries later, the Ottoman Turks annexed the area, governing it until the early 20th century when they were in turn conquered by the British Empire, who finding the native Arabs and the post-Holocaust returning Zionists still ungovernable (and unwilling to be as ruthless as its predecessor), washed its hands of the region in favor of the UN. The UN proposed a negotiated two state solution, which the Arabs have consistently rejected since they would be the controlling majority in a single state, thereby depriving Jews of their own state. As long as the Arabs reject in principle a negotiated two state compromise this forever war will continue. Eliminating the Jewish state of Israel in favor of an Arab majority Palestine is not going to happen, but that is exactly what Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran demand.
Note that the inhabitants of Palestine who became Christians during the Roman/Byzantine centuries were mostly not Arabs. There were some Arab tribes there, but it was the Muslim conquest of the region in the 7th century that brought gradual Arabization. Most of the conversion to Islam took place before the Ottoman Turks arrived.
Muslims were tolerant, but only as long as the Jews and Christians admitted to, and became subject to, the Muslim overlords! And THAT is a FACT! It was not because they were benevolent. Just ask, if you could, those Jews living in Arabia and North Africa what they thought of this "benevolence". How many Jews still reside in Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan and Gaza? And then ask yourself WHY! And while you are at it, try reading Joan Peter's book, "From Time Immemorial".
An excellent book. Read also Mark Twain's "Innocents Abroad" from 1869, and note his descriptions of the Holy Land as desert wasteland, thinly populated, with small bands of Bedouin nomads in the countryside. Most of the Arabs in Palestine descend from those who came after the start of the Zionist repatriation to work with and for the Jewish whose reclamation of the land continues to this day.
Obtaining a copy of Peters' book is a challenge. It is listed on Amazon at over $300. There is a website with a substantial part of the book recreated in a new format. I am trying to locate an electronic version for a reasonable price.
Check your local library, you may have better luck there. I regret giving my copy away as I did. When I first searched out thisw book the price was sky high as well, but I think it is because of the times that it becomes scarce. OR, if you are into conspiracies, Amazon doesn't want to allow it to be purchased? At ANY rate, I do not understand why this book hasn't been re-issued, considering its timeless subject. It contains first person accounts of people who travelled the area BEFORE the Zionist migration, and included reports of how the indigenous Jews who have consistently inhabited Jerusalem were treated by their Arab overlords in the 19th century. It gives the reader a perspective on how the Jewish migration began to change an area that was desolate and barren before they began to improve the agriculture and husbandry practices in an area that was mostly abandoned and ill-used by the so-called Palestinians. Ebay offered a copy for $101, so that is an indication of Amazon's bias.
It answers questions my web searches didn't regarding who was where when, and having the sources of those reports is priceless. I knew the basic history from the Golden Age of Islam (roughly 800 -1200, when the center of Middle Eastern culture and administration was Damascus and Moslems, Jews, and Christians collaborated in the House of Wisdom) through the Ottoman Empire and into the British Mandate, but not population and people flows. So this book fills in the gaps very nicely! Thanks to everyone who recommended it.
Best not to support Amazon. Have you seen the T-shirts they are allowing to be sold? “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free”. Do they still sell Nazi gear as well?
So was Stalin; so were the Czars. Fuck off with that kind of thinking. Being an apologist for Nazis will only earn you opprobrium at best. If you get taken around back fo a kicking, no one will weep.
I don’t know about tolerance per se, but at the time of the Balfour Declaration in 1917, Jews were only like 2% of the population in Palestine. So it’s quite possible that the Ottoman rulers just ignored them.
100 years earlier Jews comprised 10% of the population. If your number is correct what does that say about Arab immigration even prior to the British mandate?
The fact is the majority of all inhabitants descend from 19th/20th immigrants.
Several decades ago I met a Turkish woman who was a graduate student in a technical field at a university in the U.S. She was a descendant of the "Sephardim" -- Jews who had emigrated from Spain (and also Portugal) to the Ottoman Empire around 500 years ago to escape the Spanish Inquisition and related problems. Although they might not have been "first class citizens", they were allowed to live and work (and even prosper) in their adopted Muslim land. She spoke several languages, including Turkish, English, a couple of other European languages, and Ladino, a Romance language which had evolved from the Spanish that her ancestors brought with them from Spain. As far as I remember, at the time I knew her her family was still doing okay back in Turkey, although I don't know how conditions are for those Jews remaining in Turkey these days.
See "The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise"; read the Qur'an; read the work of Patricia Crone; read the memoirs of the dozen or so well known apostates from Islam. Educate yourself; your ignorance at this juncture seems deliberate.
The hatred might have increased after 1948, but the Koran was not written in 1948. In unequivocal language it directs Muslims to kill Jews, and they follow their holy book. Simple.
This is just another anti-Christian post trying to scapegoat them for the actual Nazi Muslims. It's been going on this way for a few years now. Christians don't hate Jews. Obviously, you've never been around any Christians or gone to any of their churches because this is just hogwash.
1948 was NOT the beginning of Israel! They are not settlers populating a nonspecific area. I get so tired of this thinking. Christians who study the Word of God know that the land itself has been intended for Israel since the writing in Genesis and will belong to Israel throughout the end of time. Now that we are facing the real possibility of WWIII, it is time for a serious look at world history. Horrible things have been done in the name of God! And there will be a reckoning for all of those things for Christians and nonbelievers alike. Christians, true believers— have stood with Jews everywhere and paid the price. Read the story of the ten Boom family. Corrie was a personal friend of my family. Stop the rationalizing. One group in the land is there as settlers. The other group RETURNED to their land. If they could live side by side in peace, that would be great. Unfortunately, hate has been bred into the hearts of many Muslims. Hamas however, does not represent all Palestinians. Hamas is a terrorist organization which kills indiscriminately. The innocent die in Israel and in Palestine. But again I digress. Please stop thinking or saying that Israel began as settlers coming to an unknown and unplanned location in 1948! If you discount the Bible, read world history and check out reports from archeologists in the Middle East. Good grief! 1948 was never the true beginning! Stop perpetuating the lie! Jews and Muslims do NOT share a genuine claim to the land. Not at all.
Even when one is not a believing Christian or Jew , Jewish history is there for all to see....including the Temple Mount....the man made plateau created centuries before Islam. The atheist socialist Jews rooted in Jewish history established most of the kibbutzim....and even today those kibbutzim massacred by the terrorists of hamas were leftist peace niks.
Yeah, no. There were numerous instances of Arab attacks on Jews before the creation of Israel. To name a few: In 1921, an attack by Arabs on their Jewish neighbors in Jaffa left 47 Jews dead and 147 injured. They did it again in 1936, killing 9 and injuring 40. Another attack in 1921 in Jerusalem by an Arab with a knife left 5 Jews dead and 19 injured, including women and children. A full-on pogrom erupted in Tiberius in 1938 and left 19 Jews dead. The whole "yeah, but" myth that the Arabs were living in total peace and harmony with their Jewish and Christian neighbors before the creation of Israel is bunk. Kuffar are not equals.
If you read my comment, I said that, overall, Muslims were FAIRLY tolerant of other faiths that were "of the book". The examples you cite are all in the beginning of the twentienth century, after the creation of Zionism and the influx of Jewish immigrants from Europe. While I do not condone any killings, I still think this pales in comparison to the expulsion of Jews from Iberia, the Spanish inquisition, pogroms in eastern Europe, the Holocaust, and the overwhelming collaboration of other European countries with the Nazis to assist in the destruction of Jewish people and culture. There are countless other examples of terrible anti-semitism throughout Europe. Even following the Enlightenment, in France, antisemitism was on full display, especially during the Dreyfus Affair, which inspired Theodor Herzl to found the Zionist movement in 1897.
Jews were treated like cattle by both Christians and Muslims. Christian’s slaughtered them and took their belongings. Muslims milked them by forcing them to pay the infidelity tax. Yes Muslims were kinder in that they treated Jews like dairy cows.
I don’t know what you are talking about or when this dynamic that you are referencing ever occurred, but this is not accurate if you are talking about modern times.
Christians are the only reason Nazis were defeated and Christians are the only reason Israel exists. Muslims are the only real reason that Jews are currently at risk. That is the current situation.
KD I enjoy your writing, and don’t want to get into an argument with you. I am grateful for your support, and for all the devout Christians in this country who support Israel. If you want to really know what it’s like being a Jew in modern America, wear a Yarmulke for a month and keep track of the people who tell you that they support you, vs the people who attack you.
Supay, you don't know the history of "Palestine" from 1917-1948. "The current enmity of Muslims towards Jews is from 1948 up to the present." This is ignorance of history. In 1929, the Arabs launched a rebellion against the British Mandate and slaughtered Jews wherever they could. The Hebron Massacre was as brutal (rape, torture, murder) as what they did on October 7. Arabs killed their Jewish neighbors in 1929 and 1935 throughout Palestine. Long before the state of Israel or "the occupation."
Again, you are citing examples of conflicts that date in the 20th century, following waves of migrations of Ashkenazi Jews to British Palestine. Yes, there were conflicts between arabs and jews and I do not contend that Muslims were perfect, benevolent people. However, the examples you cite absolutely pale in comparison to the European oppression, discrimination and slaughter of Jews, from the expulsion of Jews from Iberia, to the pogroms in Russia and other eastern European countries, and the ultimate orgasm of antisemitism known as the holocaust. These are Christian sins, not Muslim sins.
there is a long tradition of Muslim enmity towards Jews and violent massacres . Including Safad....long before the modern Jewish nationalist movement. Zionism gave muscle to restoring Jewish rights which Jews had long sought. The "Arab "movement was likewise influenced by various pan German and pan Slavic movements. Not only the Palestinian but the entire "Arab nation" movement is twentieth century invention. A theory that the classic Arab language and Islam confers a national identity. So identity based on religious affiliation. As it always was in the Mideast. So your "under the bus" theory of Zionism is refutable as it is inaccurate. It complies with the "Arabs" made to suffer with the hated Jews that the Europeans couldn't stand so got rid of them. In itself a Jew Hate thesis. I haven't yet written on the one million Jews dispossessed from the Mideast countries where they predate the Muslim Arab imperial colonial settler invasions.
The Muslim invaders did not kill everyone. They took hundreds of thousands of girls and women to forcibly marry Muslim soldiers (who therefore did not have to pay bridewealth) or become sex slaves of officers and other elite members.
Of everything I have read these past weeks this hits me so hard. As a Jewish mother and grandmother, you are stating that this nice woman hates me, my children, and my little grandchildren and nothing can change that, but she's still nice.
So this nice person would endorse throwing them into an oven?
What chance do they have?
I don't hate anyone and certainly not someone I have never met. This is so disheartening, and leaves me feeling totally hopeless.
So you are OK being friends with someone with inbred hatred like that? Would it be different if they hated blacks with the same passion and ingrained hatred? Are you not worried that one day she may think you a Jew and her hatred will turn on you in an instant?
It is conflicting. She’s such a nice person that her antisemitism is disorienting. I am fine taking whatever criticism I have to take for being friends with this person.
A majority of Israeli Jews are still fighting for a two-state solution with genocidal Muslims, which is literal suicide for them, so I think I can probably get a pass on my friendship. Yes?
Interesting. My wife's medical group had a significant number of Jews, but also Muslims. As far as I can tell, everyone got along great. Just not sure how people felt in the privacy of their heads.
It happened in many Muslim capitals of the former USSR after its collapse. Baku, Tashkent, Ashgabad. All of these were multicultural hubs, true melting pots of cultures and religion.
Muslims, Jews, former Christians you name it, kids were growing up together there under the warm sun of international Soviet friendship.
Then the USSR collapsed and former friends turned against each other with knives and matches with gasoline. Azeri were massacring Armenians. Uzbeks and Turkmen slashed Russians. It was a pure nightmare after
I urge you to not take council from us, strangers on the Internet. Yet, I would also note that the only way to change an ingrained mind and a hardened heart is to invest years and to be the person who makes her question her base belief, who does not reject and give up on her, but gently questions and objects to her racism. Just being there and saying (in a kindly way) that you can't agree with what she says can have a tremendous impact over time.
This is kinda obviously wrong on my part I guess as I would never be friends with someone who disliked Blacks or Latinos……but it’s just so clearly part of her religion……that it feels different.
She’s not dangerous and it’s not a dangerous hate for her and I guess you would not be able to be friends with any Muslims if you excluded antisemites.
How old are you? Prior to being pushed by the draft into the Navy in 1969, in the few places where this not-very-popular kid had exposure to The Guys, N* "jokes" occasionally arose. In northern collegiate or otherwise reasonably educated venues, such swill was generally received with nervous foot shuffling. My sense is that such would be better received in Southern and/or grungier venues and that Jewish "jokes" were more the province of the "elites." (And Polish jokes pretty nearly universal!) All that to say that fashionalbility of hatreds varies with time and place -- but that antisemitism seems to have a rather huge footprint these days.
"but that antisemitism seems to have a rather huge footprint these days."
And it has ALWAYS had a large footprint! Just not expressed in the same violent way we have seen lately. In the past, it was just an urbane attitude where the name "Jew" was used derogatively.
Of course you would - any sympathetic normal person could find love for another human that seemed genuine and good, and be willing to mentally negotiate with whatever odd hatred they may harbor. Think of how many people have a racist grandma but they still love her and chalk it up to the times. It’s normal to want to love people, and overlook terrible things they believe.
I guess I am wondering where the line is. I mean, would one discuss art with Hitler, Wagner with Himmler, or paternal pride with a Hamas commander whose son participated in Oct 7? I am guessing the answer is a no? So that's one extreme. The other is your example of the grandmother. Where would one place the line between these two extremes up to which its OK to overlook, but past which its not? I recognize that for different people and at different times that line will shift. I am wondering how does one begin to define where to place it though.
I’ve been to Israel 25 times, speak the language, read the Israeli press and know many Israelis well. The majority of Israelis would support the two-state solution if they thought that there was really any support for that on the Palestinian side. If you look at the positions of various Israeli political parties, there is very little support for a two-state solution, not out of hostility, but simply as a practical matter. The most left-wing mainstream politician, Yair Lapid, head of Yesh Atid, basically didn’t even talk about a two-state solution in the last campaign. On the other hand, he adamantly opposes expanding settlement on the West Bank, with the thought that these settlements would be a hindrance to an eventual two-state solution.
Yes, I am sure there is very little hostility in the Israeli public or Netanyahu's administration. I'm sure he was funding Hamas for altruistic reasons.
Don't care if you've been 100 times.
All data/polls say your personal anecdote is wrong.
Data? Yeah the elections where two-state solution people get elected over and over and over. That’s the data.
In fact, any time the two-state Arab Nazi appeasers lose an election in Israel they organize protests in the street to “save our democracy” from Netanyahu.
This might be the most puzzling post I have ever read, because it comes from you.
Like many others, I have read dozens of your takes and can't think of one I disagree with, which means I believe you and we think the same.
So, to have a close friend who you (presumably) respect who is unequivocally full of hate brings a new dimension to the Muslim-Jew relationship I do not understand.
Any more than I can understand the left's complete hatred for one man, Donald Trump, I cannot process this level of hate in people.
I wouldn’t say she’s a close friend but we are friends. I also wouldn’t say that she hates Jews. She has antisemitic beliefs.
I’m also friends with some Democrats, because that’s half of the population, despite the fact that their views are inherently anti-American and anti-white and communist.
If she was posting celebrations of paragliders we would not be friends. It’s complicated.
You've never seen anti-Black rasism? Let me take you down South. I lived in the South for 19 yrs. and I saw/heard anti-Black racism quite frequently. People would come into my store, and when they'd look around before speaking, I knew that were going to make a racist remark and shonuff. out it came. They assumed, because I was white, that I agreed with them. I never argued the point and didn't engage in converstation with them. Where have you spent your life? I also heard and saw it in Cincinnati, Chicago, Detroit and Los Angeles. I'm sure we travelled in different circles.
I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, and we never used the word "Negro" or any of its acceptable variations. It was always the "N" word, as if they were all of the same group and character. In turn, the Blacks treated Whites in much the same way. And they were taught to act that way just as White kids were taught by their parents what to think of the Blacks. For ME, it took getting out of that environment and seeing the world, and being in close proximity with the "other", so to speak. When people isolate themselves into opposing camps the result is always predictable.
I grew up in the cities that I mentioned and I also travelled the world and, of course, it changed me. That and being the only white musician in Black bands had a liberating effect.
It’s called “Affinity Housing”. It’s supposed to offer a “safe space” for students who share the same particular “identity”, be it racial, cultural, or whatever. There was a brouhaha a year ago when Western Washington University announced that the 4th floor of one of its dorms was going to be reserved for its “Black Affinity Housing Program”. Others who have done similarly include American University, Stanford, Cornell, and the University of Colorado Boulder.
It’s called “Affinity Housing”. It’s supposed to offer a “safe space” for students who share the same particular “identity”, be it racial, cultural, or whatever. There was a brouhaha a year ago when Western Washington University announced that the 4th floor of one of its dorms was going to be reserved for its “Black Affinity Housing Program”. Others who have done similarly include American University, Stanford, Cornell, and the University of Colorado Boulder.
This is the truth. People in glass houses... should travel outside of their region in America.
So many of these comments make me wonder how Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Atheist; all live in America without threatening death to "the other" on a daily basis. Love can come from the heart as easily as hate. I choose love for humanity, or we are all doomed.
That was true even in the '40s. Cincinnati wasn't officially segratated but in fact was segregated. Avondale was where most of the Black people lived, Greenhills was white as snow. Chiacago has always been segragated with the South side being populated by Black people.
These things change. What you say, Everybody Knew, but when I was inspecting boilers in the west side in the late 70s, I found the area (per Fade) considerably more ferocious than the south side, which I perceived as more of a checkerboard with very clear Do Not Cross lines. And found the near-north "hill billy" whites more risky than either -- the blacks still had reason to be at least wary of the police; the whites of a certain class respected no one. At that time and place. (I don' know whether my strategy would still work; I inspected boilers wearing dress shirt, tie and jacket (all but the jacket roughly a buck each at the Salvation Army) and carried a clipboard. It seems that I was perceived as either CommEd (that's Commonwealth Edison for you Nyawkas) or tthe Case Worker, both of which were protected classes.
I can't resist: We drove Company cars. A black coworker was saddled with a bright yellow Ford Torino -- a very nice car at the time. But. The Company WOULD NOT buy any but black wall tires. Thus his friends shunned him, because no one would believe that anyone but a cop would drive such a car with black wall tires. Weirdness is not all new...
When you have a small business in a town of 10,000 people it's not really wise to argue with your customers. Aside from being boycotted, what good would it do. I don't see my mission in life as trying to change people's beliefs. What you believe is your business and has nothing to do with me. Now, if you want to argue the merrits of various health supplements, I'll be happy to engage you. But your beliefs? Never.
This has been my point from the beginning! Two to three generations of Palestinians have been force fed this poison, and countless others before them have listened to the religious leaders quoting from their holy book about the elimination of the Jews. The patient is poisoned, and the prognosis is fatal.
Agreed. A very seemingly pious Palestinian Orthodox Christian woman who attended our church HATED the Israelis. She literally turned into another person when speaking of it. She became so emotional, she could barely speak of her deep-seated hatred.
Maybe you should send this interesting post to colleges, such as Harvard, Cornell and Columbia---oh, and let's not forget Stanford! Thought these kids were smart, but wow, they are unbelievably stupid!
I'd like to "Like" this because I think you're right about Muslim attitudes towards Jews among Palestinians, by and large.
(Having lived in the South in my teen years, I saw LOTS of anti-Black racism, on a weekly basis. It's much better now. But that stuff dies hard, probably dies with those people. Kinda like...?)
It is complicated. Here's my take: I was married to a Hamas-educated Palestinian who fantasized about running away from me and his kids to join Hezbollah, because they appeared to have more balls. I talked him out of it. I am half Jewish. He used to volunteer at the campus Hillel, teaching those poor Jews how to make a proper falafel. His mother had been concerned about our marriage; his father said don't worry about it, she'll never make him secretly eat pork, Jews make good wives, don't let this little political mess between the Jews and Arabs ruin our son's chances of marrying a nice woman. During the 2nd Intifada, we were at a dinner party and everyone was talking about who in their family back at home had been killed recently "by the Jews." It was very uncomfortable. I reminded people that I was half Jewish. They started talking about Adam Shapiro, some Jewish human rights man who was "going to marry one of our girls!" and about "netueri carta" the anti-Zionist Jewish group, and some old Muslim story about nice Jews or giving charity to an old Jew - I don't remember. I never sensed actual anti semitism among them. There were always plenty of Jews at the protests against Israel, and many expressed fear that pro-Israel types would attack them on their way to their car (like the creators of the Self Hating Israel Threatening List people). Buff young Muslim men would vy for the honor of walking Jewish people to their cars as security. It was considered very honorable for a Muslim to protect a friendly Jew. Muslim jurisprudence is not simple, neither is Muslim history. There is a lot of bad, but there is a reason that there were historically far more Christians and Jews in Muslim lands than there were Jews and Muslims under Christian rule. Just as people hijack Christianity and Judaism to do heinous things, so do they hijack Islam. I'm divorced and have plenty of awful tales to tell and to not tell, but none of them involve anti-semitism. Additionally, my ex husband was from a middle class family, and extremely successful academically. He was rather radical - became radical after our marriage, though he thought 9-11 was an abomination and bragged to me that in his culture only women are allowed to hijack airplanes, because women are more sensible and peaceful, they need men to help them hijack airplanes but only the women give orders, that way people don't have to die. Anyway, his radicalism, I now see, was probably like the radicalism we see (and have long seen) on elite campuses today. The Middle East elite espouse a different, but parallel radicalism. Damn armchair terrorist, my ex. But he loved my Jewish father, and once asked if he could be on the SHIT List.
Thank you for sharing a personal perspective built on knowing many Muslims closely. Sad to see so many people unable to let go on the deep stereotypes they have. Imagine having one friend, who you are not even close with, have so much power over you they decided how you think of millions. I pray for @kevin Durant? and others here to let God lift this curse of stereotyping from their eyes so we can get to work on the real issues. When we think “all Muslims hate Jews” we are slapping the God of Abraham in the face and sucking off the devil of the world, to put it how I feel it.
I have Muslims and Jews in the same family. Also Hindus, Sikhs converted to Christianity and Zoroastrians who are also Indians, Pakistanis, Germans, Austrians, Americans and Brits. All effectively non-practicing but that's just another indication that it is possible an it exists.
This group knows how to do a poll. They've been at it a long time and have earned a great deal of respect. If you want to know what Palestinians are thinking at any given time, this is the place to go.
If you want to know what Gazans think at any one time, ask Hamas, they'll tell you. Just cut out the poor middle man who risks everything to speak truth to certain death.
I’m avoiding watching the videos because all my sympathies are with the Israelis and any concern for collateral damage lessens the result of eliminating Hamas.
But…are any of these innocents willing to give information on who is Hamas? Are they willing to show where tunnel access and ventilation points are? Perhaps there’s an invitation for safety away from this.
I have little doubt that the vignettes used to illustrate the author's point. But as other have pointed out, history has shown that the urge for self-preservation while living under repressive regimes is a powerful force when the odds greatly favor those that are subject to ad hoc "laws" and stout, gray, unwelcoming prisons.
I am sure they feel comfortable being honest about dogging a regime that gives preferential treatment (food, healthcare, general living standards) and beats and murders their civilians for their sexual orientation or clothes they wear. It's fair to say political polling in Gaza is unlikely to produce truthful outcomes with very high standard errors.
I spent a decade of my life as an executive at Nielsen Media as well as have been involved in political polling. Not buying it one bit. Shoot, I know many people today, in the free US o A, who are afraid to give their honest opinion on excellently designed polls; so, they lie -- that cancel culture phenom. Starvation and death creates more pronounced barriers. Regardless, it's illogical to think that people want to live under these barbaric standards.
Many of Gaza civilians followed Hamas militants after they breached the fences and ravaged and took hostages with the same animal brutality. Based on that fact, they seem pretty comfortable with “these barbarically standards”. I think we, westerners, erroneously project our norms on people of different religion and culture.
No doubt they way they indoctrinate starting at very young ages has an impact, but this is easily overcome with freedom and economic prosperity that raises all boats which will not be hard to do under leadership that starves and beats their own. Still, the adults who have lived under this barbarism learn over time that it's not good for them. Those allegiances are tied to survival and lifestyle like not starving and having housing and healthcare. The ones who are part of Hamas are hopeless and will hopefully lose power.
Dear Dana, you sound like a very nice but idealistic person. I hope you are right. From what I understand, their goal is martyrdom. They are proud to die for their cause and that's how they raise their children from a very young age, as you said yourself. They don't value life, and I don't see how housing and healthcare factor in when they dream they will be awarded in afterlife for killing as many Jews as possible, according to teachings of Koran. How can we, Jews, negotiate with or trust people who do not consider us human? They can dress it as a fight for freedom against apartheid or colonization, and Hamas is very cunning in that regard and successfully manipulates public opinion. With all our achievements and progress, the human race does not seem to become wiser or kinder in the last two or three thousand years as far as hatred of Jews goes. What makes it so dangerous is that SJWs across the globe have taken their side and play into the hands of terrorist murderers. But I hope you are right, and there is light somewhere at the end. I wanted to say "tunnel' but thought of Gaza underground tunnels LOL.
We are talking about survival which, frankly, would be the same logical reasoning many went along with any threats to life like disease, but, in terms of things like access to food and healthcare, there's not much humans will not do to survive including supporting a barbaric regime. We have many examples in history of this compliance to survive.
Even if you think the polls are biased (either from simple lying or from residents fear of dissing Hamas), there's no arguing with the hundreds of thousands of people who celebrated in Gaza on Oct 7th. That the best "poll" I can think of.
People engaging in coerced celebrations (picture Stalin's Russia or N Korea today) for PR purposes are obvious. The video from Gaza City on Oct 7th was not coerced. Those people were happy that hundreds of Israelites were tortured or dead.
Then there's the fact that Hamas won elections in Gaza and the West Bank PA refuses to call elections because they know they would lose to Hamas. Actions speak louder than words.
While many on the masthead of the Free Press are of the Jewish faith, those editors and writers have created a news organization worthy of the news that they are reporting. Their bias is real, and it shows. But the subject matter easily lends itself to those biases.
That's why I spend the money to have a subscription.
Your proof. Or, is it just easier to understand that when oppressed by cruel people like Hamas, why would anyone ever take the chance your words would end up in the wrong ears?
They have self selected by whether they have moved south of the Wadi Gaza. Still in the line of fire? Probably a Hamas supporter. Better off without them.
If they differ in that they support psychopathic torture and murder of innocents, I'm perfectly content with a genocidal program limited in scope to those who act in such support. So if you are not Hamas and still north of the Wadi Gaza, come out with your hands up.
Somehow all the Germans snared in the contracting sovereign area of the Third Reich in 1944 and 1945 were uniformly opposed to the genocidal policy of Hitler. Yet also somehow these policies were enacted with majority support or at least acquiescence earlier in Hitler's reign. So I'm going with the less complicated view that if you are north of the Wadi, it is your responsibility to affirmatively demonstrate your non-support of Hamas, perhaps by revealing a Hamas hideout.
But also never forget that many, many Gazan somebodies stood by and allowed tunneling under schools and hospitals at a time when Gazans enjoyed self determination. The Allies in '44 and '45 didn't stop to check the loyalties of the ordinary Germans they encountered. It was, "Come out with your hands up" time and failing that, expect a bullet. That those Germans regretted either supporting or looking the other way while a murderous gang grew within them isn't an acceptable excuse or defense.
And you include all innocent children and women in Gaza? This is the issue. Humans are humans. You believe in mass murder for religious differences? God help your neighbors. Evangelical Christians believe if you do not know Jesus, you are nothing. How does this balance with their words of support for Isreali Jews? Nothing is as it seems.
If a terrorist was shooting at you and your children, would you not kill them to save your family? Of course you would. Rightly so. Hamas is dedicated to murdering innocent Jews and Israelis, and as a result, its members can and should be killed whenever they try.
Do I include "all Gazans" in that? No. Do I include innocents in that? No. Do I believe in mass murder for religious differences? That's ridiculous, this isn't about religious differences. I believe in killing people who are actively trying to kill me and my family, and that is not only legal, it's profoundly moral. As I said, you would too.
Why would adult women get a pass? They're as much adults as men, so if they're actively helping Hamas murder innocent Israelis, they die too.
I give all children a pass because kids don't have agency to make those decisions.
Evangelical Christians (not all, but too many) love and support Israelis and Israel for one cynical reason--they need the Jews to re-unite in the "Holy Land" in order for the Rapture to begin. In other words, they need to save the Jews so the Jews can be slaughtered on Earth as True Believers get Raptured to Heaven.
Israelis understand what they're about, and while they're happy to take their money and support, they do not confuse Evangelical "love" with actual love.
You're a little confused on your theology. You might look for an Alpha group online to understand all of this better. The main reason many Christians support Israel has more to do with loving God and loving the Son of Man--a Jew--the King of Israel. Everything else is God's timing. I don't know a single Christian trying to make the rapture happen. This doesn't mean Christians support Israel's policies or attack against Gaza, but it does mean they will think twice before standing against God's chosen. I also don't know a single Christian that doesn't want the very best for both Jews and Muslims. I am sure they are out there, but they have misunderstood Christ's point entirely.
"Evangelical Christians believe if you do not know Jesus, you are nothing. How does this balance with their words of support for Isreali Jews? Nothing is as it seems."
That's because your take on what Evangelical Christians believe is wrong. They (for the most part) believe all people are valued by God, and that Jesus died to make salvation available to all.
As far as I could tell when as a Jew I began attending evangelical church, the people there have a genuine respect for Jews as some of God's people. No doubt this varies by region.
Turning the other cheek has a special resonance for beheaded babies. If you are unsettled by the extermination of vermin, look the other way. If you are a Gazan who stood by - and the majority did or this couldn't have gotten as far as it did - Karma's a bitch.
Have you read the accounts of IDF bombing in southern Gaza after telling people to move there? There are plenty of Gaza's fearful of losing their homes and ending up in relocation. Be Cranky but be honest.
I do not agree that it's good riddance, as I'm some were unable to move south that wanted to, but it definitely goes to show us that not 79% of Gazas agree to be martyrs for Hamas. That's something! At least a step in the right direction. I think we can agree that those that moved south are not all in for Hamas.
War crimes are war crimes, whatever the excuse. The trials will come later, and there will be very little sympathy at that point for the perceived exigencies and the rationalizations.
When have they really? When has Israel let world opinion stop them from accomplishing their believes in righteous goals. Not being judgmental. I actual admire their self reliance.
In their battles with Hamas, and Hezbollah in the north, Israel HAS bowed to eventual world pressure to cease fire. And in EVERY case, it only helped Israel's enemies. THIS time, though, MIGHT be different. Perhaps they will follow through. But there WILL be a price to pay. Not only will their citizens lament the loss of Israeli lives and treasure, they will also lose the acceptance of the few Arab nations that now have non-belligerent relations with them. But, I believe, those same Arab nations will privately let loose a great sigh of relief that Hamas is gone.
I've seen a lot of comments about the credibility of the organization I cited.
In the video which cites the 73% of people who think hamas is corrupt (2nd video I think, near the end), the source is the same survey group as I cited in my comment.
Todays NYT The Daily was an interview with a woman who had just completed an entire month of polling in Gaza and she explained the poll and her results and they were very different from what you just said I would recommend a listen
Gazans seem to have voted for Hamas because they thought Hamas would be far less weak and corrupt than Fatah, and would pursue a two-state with Israel.
It was fair of them to think the former--Fatah is a terrible organization--but pure, sheer fantasy to think Hamas would ever pass up the chance to kill a Jew.
2:1. They asked 2 questions. Head to head elections with the current hamas leader vs the current president and head to head elections of the current hamas leader vs the current prime minister.
In both cases, Gazans went with the current hamas leader by margins over 2:1.
I said it before & I'll say it again. In America thousands are declaring their fidelity to an evil, barbarous group of Nazis. These "protestors" are ecstatic over the murder, rape, torture, burning & kidnaping of infants, children, adolescents & elderly people solely because they're Jews. It's nothing more than classic, ingrained JewHatred. I'm sick of hearing the only answer is a two state solution. It would be wonderful if brought to fruition but it's a Bubba Misa, a Fairy Tale. This concept has been rejected by the Arabs in 1936, 1948, Camp David & Oslo. "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us" Golda Meir. Israel is, was & will always be between a rock & a hard place. I'd be afraid to walk the streets of NYC as a Jew. Yes, go live with the Palestinians because they love you! RIGHT.
I checked and I’m not seeing any information about how frequently the Germans lost their utility services.
How much sympathy should I feel for the Hitler Youth? They got tricked into it I guess. It’s still the Hitler Youth. I’m thinking it’s wise to limit the sympathy.
Palestine is way worse than Nazi Germany, it is just smaller.
Fortunately for us Israel’s existence does not depend on whether or not Gazans think we have a right to exist. Let them get their own house in order first.
I disagree. Even reading this article depicts that the opposite may be true. Either way, the vast majority of the population especially in Gaza and to a large extent the West Bank are raised on 24/7 propaganda and thus making this hatred a result of nurture rather than nature. The process of normalization is an extremely slow one but it has to be the ultimate goal. It might take a few decades to get to the point of relations that Israel shares with Egypt and a maybe a millenia to get to the next stage, but nevertheless there are no other options.
Yes, I have taken into account that Jews have been persecuted during the vast majority of their existence, but it's a different time with aasymetic weapons (cyber)and the capability to wipe cities off the face of the earth which gives me hope that different outcomes are possible.
Those who step up will go to certain slaughter. Hamas has no intention of ever losing power, and the rule with an iron fist that would make Stalin stare with wonder.
The only hope for Palestinian liberation is liberation from Hamas. And that can only come with pressure and assistance from the free world. Alas if the rest of the world wasn't so busy wishing death on Israel, they could help the Palestinians achieve their dreams of a normalized and peaceful country on the beach with a thriving tourist industry and a robust economy. But alas, it's just too hard to resist piling onto the Jews - oops sorry Israel - to want to help the Palestinians. So round and round we go.
Forgive my cynicism, but the incessant drumbeat of "death to Jews" is hard to ignore.
I'm not suggesting they take on Hamas directly, but start helping their fellow innocents get out. Start helping Israel find and uproot the terrorists. They may not be them, but they know them
There are very few, if any “innocent Palestinians” in Gaza. Why is it Israel’s job to take care of the people that want Israel destroyed, want all Jews worldwide killed and that voted for Hamas and got the land that really does belong to Israel? They HAD to have the Gaza Strip. They got it. And they are unable to govern it because they share a border with Israel and that, to them is an abomination. Why can’t Egypt or Jordan or Lebanon take care of these Arabs we call Palestinians. Why does NO other country want them? Could it be that they are indoctrinated terrorists? They are the most pampered, entitled, whiniest, laziest most aggressively violent refugees in history. They are happy to be kept as pawns in the perpetual “game” of who is to Blame for the fact that Jews have one ancient homeland. It brings in a lot of “humanitarian aid.” They are happy to die for the cause. Martyrdom pays quite well in all Palestinian enclaves.
58% of Gaza's support Hamas. Yet support for other terrorist groups is far higher in the Strip, with 71% of Gazans having a positive opinion of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad group, 61% having a positive opinion of the Nasser Salah al-Din Brigades terror organization, 64% who said they had a positive view of the ruling Palestinian Authority faction of Fatah, and 74% who had a positive view of the Lion’s Den, a relatively new Islamist terror group established in Samaria. I’m not great at math but to me these numbers add up to pretty much 100% support for ANY terrorist government that promises to annihilate Israel.
They started this war with Israel and HaShem willing Israel will end it once and for all.
I hate to cast shade on this glimmer of hope, but a 2023 poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Social Research found that a plurality of Gazans, 38%, thought the foundation of Hamas was the most positive development in the history of the Palestinians (37% of German voters voted for Hitler in 1933), and another reputable poll of Palestinians recently indicated that over 70% approved of the October 7th massacre. So just because they hate Hamas doesnt mean it won’t take generations of reeducation for them to stop hating and wanting to kill Jews. With the UNRWA doing the education, of course, that day probably will never come.
I sure hope this is true and that with Hamas gone, Gazans will at least accept Israeli rule temporarily but I think millions of minds have been poisoned by a well of Jew hate so strong that it will take decades to move past this.
Egypt turned Gaza over to Israel in 1967 and wanted to return it; Egypt wanted no part of it. Sharon thought he was turning Gaza over to P A control but Hamas won the election and fought their “ brothers “ to gain control. There is no answer but to destroy Hamas and hope the PA will help. I’m not hopeful.
While I don't doubt that the voices Braude brings are genuine, I think they are unrepresentative. As for the voice in the last video, spinning a sweet dream of peace and reconciliation, Israelis have heard lots of such voices in the past, telling them things they want to hear. By now most of them no longer believe such voices; they've been taken in time and again, only to find out (as on Oct. 7) that the voices are a lie. However there are some Israelis who believe compulsively in such voices and are emotionally incapable of comprehending that facts give them the lie. I note that the head of this "voices from Gaza" organization is not a Palestinian but a Jew. He wants to think well of ordinary Gazans and wants his compatriots to think well of them too. I am very skeptical of the judgment of the messenger and the veracity of the message.
I’m always an optimist but a few voices won’t change the thought and action patterns of most Gazans. They hate the Jewish people and want them exterminated. Sucks but it’s just the facts.
While I do feel for the 'every-day Gazans' not aligned with Hamas, all they have to do is 'rat out' the Hamas members to the IDF and this could go a long ways towards taking care of the problem. Of course it would be risky, but there must be some way that technology could be leveraged to allow this to happen. It seems as though it's either that or risk being killed in the justified Israeli strikes.
I’d love to believe that these voices are typical of Palestinians. But multiple polls show not only support for Hamas, but support for killing Israelis, specifically Jews, in order to “liberate” all of Israel for Palestinians. Even in the West Bank, where conditions are much better, there is such strong support for Hamas that Abbas will not hold elections as he knows Hamas would win.
If there truly were large numbers of Palestinians who want a future more than they want Israel’s destruction, there would be hope for peace. While I’d love to be proven wrong, I remain skeptical that this is true.
Well one would hope these voices are but a small part of a larger disaffection with Hamas. That’s kind of hard to believe however upon seeing the cheering that goes on when strikes against Israel or like during 9 11 occur. Or the children yelling death to Israel or the props given to the families of “martyrs”.
If you’re skeptical about the Palestinian’s desire for freedom, notice that there has never been an Arab or Muslim state that has survived as a functioning democracy with real civil rights. Not a single one. And yet, if you resist the importation of such authoritarianism into your western country, you’re branded Islamophobic.
So what about Qatar? Their Foreign Minister wrote an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal outlining their role in the peacekeeping efforts in this war. It’s my understanding they house the heads of Hamas. So, they protect Hamas, launder money and negotiate for the hostages? Sure. And as one of life’s ironies, the very people who support Hamas/Qatar are ignorant of the slave labor Qatar used to build their stadiums for the World Cup. Soccer good=slavery okay?
You can include Erdogan of Turkey as well, who is claiming a new Ottoman Empire, including Jerusalem, Greece, and elsewhere (ethnic cleansing of Christians in Nagorno-Karabakh) and is also actively supporting Hamas and Muslim Brotherhood (and remains a NATO member(.
Erdogan is opportunistically adopting the Woke "oppressor v oppressed" garbage of "anti-colonisation". That would be a big lottery win for him to have the pre WW1 territory of the Ottoman Empire (waaah! Empire! Surely only wicked white people stole land for Empires?!) restored because guilt ridden ignorant Harvard students feel compelled to assuage their white supremacist colonialist oppressor guilt syndrome
Haha, so hilarious that anyone would bill the Ottoman Empire (let alone its retaking) as anti-colonial!! As if the Arabs, esp Palestinians, Jordanians, etc didn't fight to overthrow it 100 yrs ago. Maybe they can bring back slavery and dhimmitude too. (Look that up, children.) Not to mention those nice Ottoman tortures that IS & AQ revived (and apparently used on Kibbutzim).
shocking but true. I was googling around about the Ottoman Empire a few months back and found links that are glaring historical revisions for anyone educated pre 1990s. The Woke cannot allow the possibility that any empire building oppressor has a single cell of melanin in their skin, or was anything other than a noble warrior from an oppressed ethnicity, or their flimsy and stupid contention that white western civilisation is the root of all evil falls apart.
Consider this, there is currently a push on X, mainly dominated by Muslim pro-Palestrinian activists and uber-Woke leftists, to claim that Jews are "white" people....
YES! Qatar with our US base and Iran and all the money Biden sent their way. Trump at least had sanctions. They've taken billions in aid to line their pockets. Why isn't anyone going after the leaders? What about Biden publicly supporting a two-state solution while blocking it at the UN? Are our leaders just trying to create wars to support the billionaires in an attempt to keep their own power? It seems obvious to go after the Hamas leaders and their money.
Hmm. So what does all this mean? In times of war our soldiers should treat their civilians as hapless victims because they live under authoritarian rule? But their side is free to make no distinction between civilians and military because our civilians can stand up and oppose the actions of our military? Pleeze! War is hell and if you think civilians are “innocent,” then what are your soldiers “guilty” of? Protecting you?
“Veterans of Gaza’s 2019 anti-Hamas street demonstrations, for example, braved gunfire and prison to make their voices heard, but received neither support nor solidarity from the outside world.”
—————————————————-
Yeah sorry I don’t believe you. I only have one Muslim friend and she is the nicest girl you will ever meet and she is a hardcore antisemite.
When we hang out with my Jewish friends she is fine. It’s not genocidal hatred. But she’s 100% an antisemite.
Anyone who tells you Muslims can live alongside Jews is a liar. Maybe only a small percentage of Muslims are the ones who put the Jewish baby in the oven (which happened) after raping and beheading the concert attendee (which happened). You still cannot have Muslims and Jews living together. The Muslims won’t allow it. You can see it in their eyes.
It’s gross and creepy and it’s why I am so casual about alleged anti-Black racism in America because I’ve never actually seen any anti-Black racism ever in my life. But I *have* seen how Muslims hate Jews. I’ve seen it personally. I’ve seen how normal average everyday Muslims hate Jews and it is disgusting. This is bred into them.
Kev, she may be the sweetest person you know but when she is with her Islamic pals they talk about not only killing the Jews but ridding the world of infidels and that is you and me Pal.
You’re so correct; when you are taught to hate a race from birth; you’re just not a nice and sweet person. Get away from her, she’s probably infectious.
It is in the Islamic psyche to hate non-Islamists. The Koran teaches them this. The Israel problem will never go away.
If you don't believe me, just look at what Isis did. They murdered all non-Sunnis. Look at what the Islamic invaders did in India in the 13th century. They slaughtered everybody they could get their hands on.
Tens of millions of Indians died at the hands of the religion of peace.
It is disturbing that almost all the posts about muslim hatred of Jews fails to mention that, historically (that is, prior to 1948), Muslims were fairly tolerant of Christians and Jews. They may have been taxed more than Muslims, but they were never persecuted the way that Jews were persecuted in Europe, by Christians, for centuries. The Zionist movement was born in Europe as a reaction to Christian persecution and rabid anti-semitism that revealed that, no matter how hard Jews tried to assimilate, they would always be outsiders and vulnerable to the hatred of Jews (by Christians). The hatred of Jews culminated with the holocaust, but the movement to create a Jewish state dates back to the end of the nineteenth century. The current enmity of Muslims towards Jews is from 1948 up to the present (and perhaps earlier, beginning with the migration of Jews to the Holy Land and the buying of large parcels of land.) It's too bad that the Jews were not given a slice of Germany after WW2 to establish their homeland, but it was much more convenient to throw the Palestinians under the bus. And besides, European Christians were more than happy to have Jews leave Europe. As the saying goes: The arabs are paying for Christian sins.
I don’t understand. Who are those mysterious “native” Palestinians thrown under the bus?
At the time of the first mandate (1917-1918), Palestine was a mere name of the region in the Mediterranean, akin of “Midwest” or “Siberia”.
The settlers who started populating it were largely misplaced Muslims after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.
All those Muslim refugees fled from what is now Eastern Europe (Balkans, Bulgaria) to what was left of the Ottoman Empire (what is now Turkey) and Turkey directed them to that unpopulated, deserted area, named Palestine.
These “Palestinians” are the same settlers, from approximately the same time period, as the Jews, only of different religion. Both groups did with the region what they could in the same time frame. One has industry, technology and agriculture, another - militant tunnels, collapsing infrastructure fully dependent of its neighbor and an elected terror organization for its leadership. 🤷♀️
It wasn't Turkey directing immigrants to the Palestine region after 1917. The Ottoman Empire was an ally of Germany in WW1. The Palestine region was lost militarily to the Allies in 1917. Without going into complex history, through the political instrument known as the Balfour Declarations the UK created The British Mandate of Palestine with the intention of encouraging the settlement of European Jews. A lot happened up until 1948 but the concept of a jewish homeland and moves to create it started in 1917.
No, the “concept of a Jewish homeland predates the Hegira by many centuries.
Actually, no. Modern day zionism began with Theodore Hertzl in the late 1800s. He was long dead in 1917.
From whatever historic interpretations we look at it, Kaiser or Pasha, the bottom line is that the last time native Arab population was found in Palestine was before the First Crusade, in 1099. Then for a Millenium mixed bag of ethnicities, populated Palestinians, but not Árabs.
And unless we are ready to engage in repatriation game for those Arabs “oppressed” by Crusaders back in 1099… then our modern day Palestinians are still the descendants of the settlers, just like the modern Israeli. Both are settlers.
The nuances provided by your input didn’t change that.
I agree with that and wholly acknowledge that a sizable percentage of ethnically Arab peoples are indigenuous to the region along with more recent settler populations of both Arab and Israeli. To suggest they should be dispossessed of either their history or land rights isn't my intention. The more fascinating question is how to get two groups of people who have been able to maintain millennia long strong separate identities, resistant to integration, how to get them to live in proximity without endless hostility. In modernity we are experimenting with different solutions that may have been tried in the past, ideas that have evolved from the Wests success with humanitarian enlightenment principles. On a philosophical level I don't see it working and I'm a pessimist. For the Western politicians and elites who are indoctrinated with modernist, post structuralist liberal thought it is apparent they struggle with the concept that the East doesn't think like us and that genocide isn't anathema to Islam.
Lloyd George the British PM at the time was a very religious man and thought repopulating Palestine with Jews would speed up the second coming.
There was a comment in the WSJ yesterday where the guy said, and I quote, “Protestant theology teaches that the Second Coming will happen when Israel wins the war, and that’s why we support Israel.” The last time I posted something like this here I got jumped on big time, but then boom! It shows up in the WSJ comments. It’s a thing.
No different than the Christian Zionists of today, who believe that the culminating effect of Israelis expelling all arabs and uniting the lands of Israel will lead to the second coming (of course, the end result of such a scenario is that all the Jews and Muslims (and all other non-Christians) will realize that Jesus is the true God, will convert to Christianity, or be burned alive). I have always wondered, when Jesus returns and rules for a thousand years from Jerusalem, what form of government will he uphold? A benevolent dictatorship? Jeffersonian democracy? Marxism? This is, after all, still planet earth, right, with all the foibles and vulnerabilities of human beings?
They are gypsies, Turks, Circassians, Armenians.
Hmmm.... no. The old 'if only it wasn't for the state of Israel' shtick is horribly incorrect. In order to put forward your deeply flawed theory you have skipped over a lot of history and omitted numerous details.This Substack usually attracts people who do at least a little more research than you have here, and who tend to avoid ignorant tropes such as the myth of the peaceful Muslims victimized by the mere founding of the state of Israel.
If you've never read about the unbroken Jewish presence in the area that is now Israel, go do so now. If you've never heard of Arab pogroms against the Jews during the Ottoman Empire or in British Palestine, go learn something. If you don't know about the pogroms and expulsions of Jews in North African and Arab countries, that's more reading for you. How about Hitler's good friend and consultant, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem? Ring some bells? You have an awful lot to catch up on. I suggest you hurry up before you're tempted to respond here with more ignorant blather.
The most embarrassing though, has to be your assertion that 'Palestinian's' were thrown under the bus during the founding of Israel. The who? Considering the area at the time was made up of Jews and Arabs and the Arabs were granted the far larger and better portion of land in Transjordan that became Jordan, I'm not sure which 'Palestinians' you're referring to considering that it was largely Jews who were referred to as Palestinians up till Israel's founding. The Arabs, a large contingent of whom had migrated to Israel in the previous century,, were originally from neighboring states as their last names attest.
Palestinians as a distinct people claiming indigeneity and entitlement to the land, only became an exclusively arab-identifying group when Yassir Arafat co-opted this title in the late 1960's as an extension of an arab chauvinism characterized by constant attempts to wipe Israel from the face of the earth since its founding purely because it was governed by Jews. The PLO have been replaced by Hamas whose charter too is to kill all Jews and wipe Israel off the map so as to establish a caliphate inits place.
Arafat, whose family ancestry was Egyptian, and the 'Palestinian Liberation Organization' set out to delegitimize Israel through militant terror tactics against Jews worldwide but also against Arabs who sold their homes to Jews, whom they would shoot.
Arafat's public relations tactics brought the world the notion of the victimized Palestinian and set in motion the myth that as long as Jews had a tiny sliver of land in the middle east, no Palestinian-identifying arab could feel free. Foreign aid flowed in. Arafat became a billionaire and the newly identifying Palestinian people, displaced through wars the arabs started, and seeing none of the money the PLO pocketed, became eternal refugees; political pawns in a now 75 year ruse to convince the world that the founding of Israel was a nakba- a disaster. Meanwhile the spigot of public sympathy for 'oppressed' Palestinians flows continuing to enrich only Palestinian leadership as has become tradition.
And yet e, the 25% of the Israeli population who are arabs, have full rights as Israeli citizens and have more human rights and protections than Arabs in any of the other countries in the middle east.
I am just skimming the surface here because I dont have time to conduct a comprehensive history lesson. But please do more research before commenting further.
The Jewish community is experiencing hate and intolerance at alarming levels and assertions such as yours work to excuse and downplay arab and Muslim antisemitism which is then used to justify violence against Jews.
The first step of the terror apologist is to find ways to blame the victim. This you have achieved in the guise of having some sort of expertise on the subject by which you offer faux- evidence of 'Palestinians' being shortchanged during the execution of the partition plan when in reality, it was the Israelis who received less land than promised, a large part of which was barren swampland. What they have done with it is nothing short of miraculous.
Thank you for this.
Actually the Arabs made an alliance with the Nazis that predates 1948. The Palestinian (?) Grand Mufti met with Hitler. This didn't JUST happen in 1948. Like, wow one day the Arabs woke up hating Jews. And there was a war in 1948 trying to exterminate the new Jewish state - a tiny sliver of land surrounded by Muslim nations. So that didn't come from no where. Yes Christian antisemitism was imported into the Middle East. But the arabs aren't "paying the price" for Christian sins. The middle east is entirely Islamic. What price are they paying? Their own. This is their world. And let's not forget the millions of refugees that have fled their own Islamic nations in hope of a better life, not to mention the millions killed, yet somehow Israel's the big baddie here for wanting national security in a region entirely murderous towards their existence. Your view of history and of the region is skewed.
Apparently the Grand Mufti met Hitler multiple times and there are photos of him touring the camps.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/amin-al-husseini-nazi-concentration-camp
Also- The charter of Hamas refers to the Elders of Zion which of course is a horrific antisemitic text originating from Russia then used by Nazis and conspiracy theorists now.
While it is true that the Ottoman Empire was somewhat tolerant of Christians and Jews, even if only as second-class subjects, that tolerance was not especially shared by their fellow Muslim Arabs. The brutal Turkish regime cynically pitted the Jews, Arabs, and Christians against each other, all the while suppressing the centuries-old Arab enmity toward the Jews.
Let there be no misunderstanding re the historical context. Finding the Jews ungovernable, the Romans forcibly dispersed most of them from what we now call Israel or Palestine in the second century, leaving to their governance a populace that gradually became chiefly Christianized. Arab tribes started conquering the region in the 7th century, leading to its Arabization and eventual Islamization and causing many indigenous Christians to convert. Centuries later, the Ottoman Turks annexed the area, governing it until the early 20th century when they were in turn conquered by the British Empire, who finding the native Arabs and the post-Holocaust returning Zionists still ungovernable (and unwilling to be as ruthless as its predecessor), washed its hands of the region in favor of the UN. The UN proposed a negotiated two state solution, which the Arabs have consistently rejected since they would be the controlling majority in a single state, thereby depriving Jews of their own state. As long as the Arabs reject in principle a negotiated two state compromise this forever war will continue. Eliminating the Jewish state of Israel in favor of an Arab majority Palestine is not going to happen, but that is exactly what Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran demand.
Note that the inhabitants of Palestine who became Christians during the Roman/Byzantine centuries were mostly not Arabs. There were some Arab tribes there, but it was the Muslim conquest of the region in the 7th century that brought gradual Arabization. Most of the conversion to Islam took place before the Ottoman Turks arrived.
Absolutely right. I may edit my summary to make that clearer. Thank you.
Wow. That was an excellent thumbnail summary of the history of Palestine. Bravo!
Thank you.
Muslims were tolerant, but only as long as the Jews and Christians admitted to, and became subject to, the Muslim overlords! And THAT is a FACT! It was not because they were benevolent. Just ask, if you could, those Jews living in Arabia and North Africa what they thought of this "benevolence". How many Jews still reside in Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan and Gaza? And then ask yourself WHY! And while you are at it, try reading Joan Peter's book, "From Time Immemorial".
An excellent book. Read also Mark Twain's "Innocents Abroad" from 1869, and note his descriptions of the Holy Land as desert wasteland, thinly populated, with small bands of Bedouin nomads in the countryside. Most of the Arabs in Palestine descend from those who came after the start of the Zionist repatriation to work with and for the Jewish whose reclamation of the land continues to this day.
I am halfway through her book! Superbly researched and annotated. You're right to recommend it. It cemented my Pro-Israel stance.
Obtaining a copy of Peters' book is a challenge. It is listed on Amazon at over $300. There is a website with a substantial part of the book recreated in a new format. I am trying to locate an electronic version for a reasonable price.
Check your local library, you may have better luck there. I regret giving my copy away as I did. When I first searched out thisw book the price was sky high as well, but I think it is because of the times that it becomes scarce. OR, if you are into conspiracies, Amazon doesn't want to allow it to be purchased? At ANY rate, I do not understand why this book hasn't been re-issued, considering its timeless subject. It contains first person accounts of people who travelled the area BEFORE the Zionist migration, and included reports of how the indigenous Jews who have consistently inhabited Jerusalem were treated by their Arab overlords in the 19th century. It gives the reader a perspective on how the Jewish migration began to change an area that was desolate and barren before they began to improve the agriculture and husbandry practices in an area that was mostly abandoned and ill-used by the so-called Palestinians. Ebay offered a copy for $101, so that is an indication of Amazon's bias.
I found an electronic version.
It answers questions my web searches didn't regarding who was where when, and having the sources of those reports is priceless. I knew the basic history from the Golden Age of Islam (roughly 800 -1200, when the center of Middle Eastern culture and administration was Damascus and Moslems, Jews, and Christians collaborated in the House of Wisdom) through the Ottoman Empire and into the British Mandate, but not population and people flows. So this book fills in the gaps very nicely! Thanks to everyone who recommended it.
Best not to support Amazon. Have you seen the T-shirts they are allowing to be sold? “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free”. Do they still sell Nazi gear as well?
That is not entirely true. Prior to WW I most the Middel East was part of the Ottoman Empire and they killed and persecuted Jews
The Ottomans were quite tolerant toward Jews in the main.
So was Stalin; so were the Czars. Fuck off with that kind of thinking. Being an apologist for Nazis will only earn you opprobrium at best. If you get taken around back fo a kicking, no one will weep.
Tough guy wouldn’t know an Ottoman from an octopus.
I don’t know about tolerance per se, but at the time of the Balfour Declaration in 1917, Jews were only like 2% of the population in Palestine. So it’s quite possible that the Ottoman rulers just ignored them.
100 years earlier Jews comprised 10% of the population. If your number is correct what does that say about Arab immigration even prior to the British mandate?
The fact is the majority of all inhabitants descend from 19th/20th immigrants.
Several decades ago I met a Turkish woman who was a graduate student in a technical field at a university in the U.S. She was a descendant of the "Sephardim" -- Jews who had emigrated from Spain (and also Portugal) to the Ottoman Empire around 500 years ago to escape the Spanish Inquisition and related problems. Although they might not have been "first class citizens", they were allowed to live and work (and even prosper) in their adopted Muslim land. She spoke several languages, including Turkish, English, a couple of other European languages, and Ladino, a Romance language which had evolved from the Spanish that her ancestors brought with them from Spain. As far as I remember, at the time I knew her her family was still doing okay back in Turkey, although I don't know how conditions are for those Jews remaining in Turkey these days.
Thessaloniki (Salonica) in Greece had a very large Jewish, Ladino-speaking population until WWII.
There were several massacrers of Jews throughout the empire in the 1800s.
See "The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise"; read the Qur'an; read the work of Patricia Crone; read the memoirs of the dozen or so well known apostates from Islam. Educate yourself; your ignorance at this juncture seems deliberate.
The hatred might have increased after 1948, but the Koran was not written in 1948. In unequivocal language it directs Muslims to kill Jews, and they follow their holy book. Simple.
"historically (that is, prior to 1948), Muslims were fairly tolerant of Christians and Jews."
Utter nonsense. You know nothing of Islamic history. Read ISLAM AND DHIMMITUDE and THE LEGACY OF ISLAMIC ANTISEMITISM. For Palestinian violent pogroms of Jews see https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/palestinian-pogroms-before-1948-prove-that-attacking-jews-was-never-about-israel/
This is just another anti-Christian post trying to scapegoat them for the actual Nazi Muslims. It's been going on this way for a few years now. Christians don't hate Jews. Obviously, you've never been around any Christians or gone to any of their churches because this is just hogwash.
1948 was NOT the beginning of Israel! They are not settlers populating a nonspecific area. I get so tired of this thinking. Christians who study the Word of God know that the land itself has been intended for Israel since the writing in Genesis and will belong to Israel throughout the end of time. Now that we are facing the real possibility of WWIII, it is time for a serious look at world history. Horrible things have been done in the name of God! And there will be a reckoning for all of those things for Christians and nonbelievers alike. Christians, true believers— have stood with Jews everywhere and paid the price. Read the story of the ten Boom family. Corrie was a personal friend of my family. Stop the rationalizing. One group in the land is there as settlers. The other group RETURNED to their land. If they could live side by side in peace, that would be great. Unfortunately, hate has been bred into the hearts of many Muslims. Hamas however, does not represent all Palestinians. Hamas is a terrorist organization which kills indiscriminately. The innocent die in Israel and in Palestine. But again I digress. Please stop thinking or saying that Israel began as settlers coming to an unknown and unplanned location in 1948! If you discount the Bible, read world history and check out reports from archeologists in the Middle East. Good grief! 1948 was never the true beginning! Stop perpetuating the lie! Jews and Muslims do NOT share a genuine claim to the land. Not at all.
Even when one is not a believing Christian or Jew , Jewish history is there for all to see....including the Temple Mount....the man made plateau created centuries before Islam. The atheist socialist Jews rooted in Jewish history established most of the kibbutzim....and even today those kibbutzim massacred by the terrorists of hamas were leftist peace niks.
Revisionist history is simply a lie. Not history.
Yeah, no. There were numerous instances of Arab attacks on Jews before the creation of Israel. To name a few: In 1921, an attack by Arabs on their Jewish neighbors in Jaffa left 47 Jews dead and 147 injured. They did it again in 1936, killing 9 and injuring 40. Another attack in 1921 in Jerusalem by an Arab with a knife left 5 Jews dead and 19 injured, including women and children. A full-on pogrom erupted in Tiberius in 1938 and left 19 Jews dead. The whole "yeah, but" myth that the Arabs were living in total peace and harmony with their Jewish and Christian neighbors before the creation of Israel is bunk. Kuffar are not equals.
If you read my comment, I said that, overall, Muslims were FAIRLY tolerant of other faiths that were "of the book". The examples you cite are all in the beginning of the twentienth century, after the creation of Zionism and the influx of Jewish immigrants from Europe. While I do not condone any killings, I still think this pales in comparison to the expulsion of Jews from Iberia, the Spanish inquisition, pogroms in eastern Europe, the Holocaust, and the overwhelming collaboration of other European countries with the Nazis to assist in the destruction of Jewish people and culture. There are countless other examples of terrible anti-semitism throughout Europe. Even following the Enlightenment, in France, antisemitism was on full display, especially during the Dreyfus Affair, which inspired Theodor Herzl to found the Zionist movement in 1897.
You may want to read a history of the Ottoman Turks especially https://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/the-ottoman-christian-genocide
Jews were treated like cattle by both Christians and Muslims. Christian’s slaughtered them and took their belongings. Muslims milked them by forcing them to pay the infidelity tax. Yes Muslims were kinder in that they treated Jews like dairy cows.
I don’t know what you are talking about or when this dynamic that you are referencing ever occurred, but this is not accurate if you are talking about modern times.
Christians are the only reason Nazis were defeated and Christians are the only reason Israel exists. Muslims are the only real reason that Jews are currently at risk. That is the current situation.
KD I enjoy your writing, and don’t want to get into an argument with you. I am grateful for your support, and for all the devout Christians in this country who support Israel. If you want to really know what it’s like being a Jew in modern America, wear a Yarmulke for a month and keep track of the people who tell you that they support you, vs the people who attack you.
I would be afraid to wear a yarmulke in public right now unless I knew I was surrounded by Republican voters.
Supay, you don't know the history of "Palestine" from 1917-1948. "The current enmity of Muslims towards Jews is from 1948 up to the present." This is ignorance of history. In 1929, the Arabs launched a rebellion against the British Mandate and slaughtered Jews wherever they could. The Hebron Massacre was as brutal (rape, torture, murder) as what they did on October 7. Arabs killed their Jewish neighbors in 1929 and 1935 throughout Palestine. Long before the state of Israel or "the occupation."
Again, you are citing examples of conflicts that date in the 20th century, following waves of migrations of Ashkenazi Jews to British Palestine. Yes, there were conflicts between arabs and jews and I do not contend that Muslims were perfect, benevolent people. However, the examples you cite absolutely pale in comparison to the European oppression, discrimination and slaughter of Jews, from the expulsion of Jews from Iberia, to the pogroms in Russia and other eastern European countries, and the ultimate orgasm of antisemitism known as the holocaust. These are Christian sins, not Muslim sins.
there is a long tradition of Muslim enmity towards Jews and violent massacres . Including Safad....long before the modern Jewish nationalist movement. Zionism gave muscle to restoring Jewish rights which Jews had long sought. The "Arab "movement was likewise influenced by various pan German and pan Slavic movements. Not only the Palestinian but the entire "Arab nation" movement is twentieth century invention. A theory that the classic Arab language and Islam confers a national identity. So identity based on religious affiliation. As it always was in the Mideast. So your "under the bus" theory of Zionism is refutable as it is inaccurate. It complies with the "Arabs" made to suffer with the hated Jews that the Europeans couldn't stand so got rid of them. In itself a Jew Hate thesis. I haven't yet written on the one million Jews dispossessed from the Mideast countries where they predate the Muslim Arab imperial colonial settler invasions.
There are so many Arab and Muslim tribes and they all seem to hate each other even within their own culture.
It has always been that way.
That's the problem. They not only hate the Jews, they hate segments of their own culture.
Many of these tribal societies apparently need a secular dictatorship.
ie. Libya, Syria, etc. These cultures are not like the West. Take away the strongman and you get chaos.
Yes, I think we found out that the hard way. We should have left Saddam right where he was.
Agree.
Which is why it's so ironic how they criticize us. We have a more civilized society.
And right now aligned to kill the Jews
This is a human problem.
The Muslim invaders did not kill everyone. They took hundreds of thousands of girls and women to forcibly marry Muslim soldiers (who therefore did not have to pay bridewealth) or become sex slaves of officers and other elite members.
https://www.sikhnet.com/news/islamic-india-biggest-holocaust-world-history
I rest my case.
Of everything I have read these past weeks this hits me so hard. As a Jewish mother and grandmother, you are stating that this nice woman hates me, my children, and my little grandchildren and nothing can change that, but she's still nice.
So this nice person would endorse throwing them into an oven?
What chance do they have?
I don't hate anyone and certainly not someone I have never met. This is so disheartening, and leaves me feeling totally hopeless.
No she’s just an average antisemite. She has bigoted views. Non-threatening in my opinion. She’s not a “river to the sea” person.
Democrats are the people you need to fear. I’m really just saying that all Muslims are antisemites and you can’t get around this fact.
So you are OK being friends with someone with inbred hatred like that? Would it be different if they hated blacks with the same passion and ingrained hatred? Are you not worried that one day she may think you a Jew and her hatred will turn on you in an instant?
It is conflicting. She’s such a nice person that her antisemitism is disorienting. I am fine taking whatever criticism I have to take for being friends with this person.
A majority of Israeli Jews are still fighting for a two-state solution with genocidal Muslims, which is literal suicide for them, so I think I can probably get a pass on my friendship. Yes?
Just curious. If she is so antisemitic, how does she tolerate being around Jewish people at all, and how does she manifest her antisemitism?
She says antisemitic things when Jews aren’t around.
I have a shitload of white friends, as you might imagine, and I’ve never heard a white friend say something racist about non-white.
She is very high-functioning and the antisemitism is just matter-of-fact.
Interesting. My wife's medical group had a significant number of Jews, but also Muslims. As far as I can tell, everyone got along great. Just not sure how people felt in the privacy of their heads.
In the privacy of their heads the Muslims hate the Jews. Trust me. They are hiding it.
Islam was founded by a barbarian child molester warlord who hates Jews so it’s not surprising.
It happened in many Muslim capitals of the former USSR after its collapse. Baku, Tashkent, Ashgabad. All of these were multicultural hubs, true melting pots of cultures and religion.
Muslims, Jews, former Christians you name it, kids were growing up together there under the warm sun of international Soviet friendship.
Then the USSR collapsed and former friends turned against each other with knives and matches with gasoline. Azeri were massacring Armenians. Uzbeks and Turkmen slashed Russians. It was a pure nightmare after
decades of multicultural paradise….
I urge you to not take council from us, strangers on the Internet. Yet, I would also note that the only way to change an ingrained mind and a hardened heart is to invest years and to be the person who makes her question her base belief, who does not reject and give up on her, but gently questions and objects to her racism. Just being there and saying (in a kindly way) that you can't agree with what she says can have a tremendous impact over time.
Good Luck.
I am not judging, sorry if my question came across that way. Just genuinely curios as I am in a similar boat.
Not being provocative, but just probing a bit, would it be different for you if her hatred was for Blacks, or Latinos?
This is kinda obviously wrong on my part I guess as I would never be friends with someone who disliked Blacks or Latinos……but it’s just so clearly part of her religion……that it feels different.
She’s not dangerous and it’s not a dangerous hate for her and I guess you would not be able to be friends with any Muslims if you excluded antisemites.
Curious as to why you define this as “non-dangerous” hate. Because it’s her religion? Why does that make it okay?
I had exactly the same thought. Why is hatred of Jews excusable or can be tolerated but hatred of Blacks or Latinos is absolutely positively not?
She’s not ripping down posters of Jewish hostages. She’s not like that. Those people are dangerous. She isn’t dangerous. Does that make sense?
She has some opinions about Jews that are antisemitic and clearly based in religion but she’s not a “river to the sea” person. This is different, yes?
How old are you? Prior to being pushed by the draft into the Navy in 1969, in the few places where this not-very-popular kid had exposure to The Guys, N* "jokes" occasionally arose. In northern collegiate or otherwise reasonably educated venues, such swill was generally received with nervous foot shuffling. My sense is that such would be better received in Southern and/or grungier venues and that Jewish "jokes" were more the province of the "elites." (And Polish jokes pretty nearly universal!) All that to say that fashionalbility of hatreds varies with time and place -- but that antisemitism seems to have a rather huge footprint these days.
"but that antisemitism seems to have a rather huge footprint these days."
And it has ALWAYS had a large footprint! Just not expressed in the same violent way we have seen lately. In the past, it was just an urbane attitude where the name "Jew" was used derogatively.
You guys don't talk about how you know the election was stolen because of black poll workers?
One trick Comprof. Tedious.
666
We regularly discuss how Obese Black Womxn in Atlanta are non-partisan neutral arbiters who are truthful and can be trusted, generally speaking.
Of course you would - any sympathetic normal person could find love for another human that seemed genuine and good, and be willing to mentally negotiate with whatever odd hatred they may harbor. Think of how many people have a racist grandma but they still love her and chalk it up to the times. It’s normal to want to love people, and overlook terrible things they believe.
I guess I am wondering where the line is. I mean, would one discuss art with Hitler, Wagner with Himmler, or paternal pride with a Hamas commander whose son participated in Oct 7? I am guessing the answer is a no? So that's one extreme. The other is your example of the grandmother. Where would one place the line between these two extremes up to which its OK to overlook, but past which its not? I recognize that for different people and at different times that line will shift. I am wondering how does one begin to define where to place it though.
"A majority of Israeli Jews are still fighting for a two-state solution..."
Do you have data/evidence to back this up?
666
Do you have dat which disproves it?
I’ve been to Israel 25 times, speak the language, read the Israeli press and know many Israelis well. The majority of Israelis would support the two-state solution if they thought that there was really any support for that on the Palestinian side. If you look at the positions of various Israeli political parties, there is very little support for a two-state solution, not out of hostility, but simply as a practical matter. The most left-wing mainstream politician, Yair Lapid, head of Yesh Atid, basically didn’t even talk about a two-state solution in the last campaign. On the other hand, he adamantly opposes expanding settlement on the West Bank, with the thought that these settlements would be a hindrance to an eventual two-state solution.
Ah, yes.....the Palestinians fault.....got it.
Yes, I am sure there is very little hostility in the Israeli public or Netanyahu's administration. I'm sure he was funding Hamas for altruistic reasons.
Don't care if you've been 100 times.
All data/polls say your personal anecdote is wrong.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's not how that works, dude....
But since you asked: https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RRA725-1.html
https://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-says-majority-of-israelis-support-two-state-solution-but-poll-finds-otherwise/
Keep opening your mouth ;)
666
Data? Yeah the elections where two-state solution people get elected over and over and over. That’s the data.
In fact, any time the two-state Arab Nazi appeasers lose an election in Israel they organize protests in the street to “save our democracy” from Netanyahu.
Stop trying to make "Nazi" happen...it's not working, dude.
No, you opinion is not data. That is what is not.
No. I provided/data polls to othrers that say you're wrong.
Can share it if you would like?
Now, YOU provide your data re: two-state people elected over and over and polls from Israeli citizens to back up your claim.
I'll wait.. :)
This might be the most puzzling post I have ever read, because it comes from you.
Like many others, I have read dozens of your takes and can't think of one I disagree with, which means I believe you and we think the same.
So, to have a close friend who you (presumably) respect who is unequivocally full of hate brings a new dimension to the Muslim-Jew relationship I do not understand.
Any more than I can understand the left's complete hatred for one man, Donald Trump, I cannot process this level of hate in people.
I don't think I'm alone........
I wouldn’t say she’s a close friend but we are friends. I also wouldn’t say that she hates Jews. She has antisemitic beliefs.
I’m also friends with some Democrats, because that’s half of the population, despite the fact that their views are inherently anti-American and anti-white and communist.
If she was posting celebrations of paragliders we would not be friends. It’s complicated.
You've never seen anti-Black rasism? Let me take you down South. I lived in the South for 19 yrs. and I saw/heard anti-Black racism quite frequently. People would come into my store, and when they'd look around before speaking, I knew that were going to make a racist remark and shonuff. out it came. They assumed, because I was white, that I agreed with them. I never argued the point and didn't engage in converstation with them. Where have you spent your life? I also heard and saw it in Cincinnati, Chicago, Detroit and Los Angeles. I'm sure we travelled in different circles.
I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, and we never used the word "Negro" or any of its acceptable variations. It was always the "N" word, as if they were all of the same group and character. In turn, the Blacks treated Whites in much the same way. And they were taught to act that way just as White kids were taught by their parents what to think of the Blacks. For ME, it took getting out of that environment and seeing the world, and being in close proximity with the "other", so to speak. When people isolate themselves into opposing camps the result is always predictable.
Predictable, exactly.
I grew up in the cities that I mentioned and I also travelled the world and, of course, it changed me. That and being the only white musician in Black bands had a liberating effect.
So I wonder why we are now creating segregated dorms in colleges?
It’s called “Affinity Housing”. It’s supposed to offer a “safe space” for students who share the same particular “identity”, be it racial, cultural, or whatever. There was a brouhaha a year ago when Western Washington University announced that the 4th floor of one of its dorms was going to be reserved for its “Black Affinity Housing Program”. Others who have done similarly include American University, Stanford, Cornell, and the University of Colorado Boulder.
AKA becoming what you claim to hate.
I didn't know that. Maybe the students want it that way?
It’s called “Affinity Housing”. It’s supposed to offer a “safe space” for students who share the same particular “identity”, be it racial, cultural, or whatever. There was a brouhaha a year ago when Western Washington University announced that the 4th floor of one of its dorms was going to be reserved for its “Black Affinity Housing Program”. Others who have done similarly include American University, Stanford, Cornell, and the University of Colorado Boulder.
This is the truth. People in glass houses... should travel outside of their region in America.
So many of these comments make me wonder how Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Atheist; all live in America without threatening death to "the other" on a daily basis. Love can come from the heart as easily as hate. I choose love for humanity, or we are all doomed.
FWIW into at least the '80s it was said that such as Cincinnati, OH and Cairo (that's Kay-ro), IL, were further south than Atlanta
That was true even in the '40s. Cincinnati wasn't officially segratated but in fact was segregated. Avondale was where most of the Black people lived, Greenhills was white as snow. Chiacago has always been segragated with the South side being populated by Black people.
These things change. What you say, Everybody Knew, but when I was inspecting boilers in the west side in the late 70s, I found the area (per Fade) considerably more ferocious than the south side, which I perceived as more of a checkerboard with very clear Do Not Cross lines. And found the near-north "hill billy" whites more risky than either -- the blacks still had reason to be at least wary of the police; the whites of a certain class respected no one. At that time and place. (I don' know whether my strategy would still work; I inspected boilers wearing dress shirt, tie and jacket (all but the jacket roughly a buck each at the Salvation Army) and carried a clipboard. It seems that I was perceived as either CommEd (that's Commonwealth Edison for you Nyawkas) or tthe Case Worker, both of which were protected classes.
I can't resist: We drove Company cars. A black coworker was saddled with a bright yellow Ford Torino -- a very nice car at the time. But. The Company WOULD NOT buy any but black wall tires. Thus his friends shunned him, because no one would believe that anyone but a cop would drive such a car with black wall tires. Weirdness is not all new...
I grew up in Chicago. The west side is just as black as the south side..
George Wallace was a racist. I was there. There’s a huge difference between stupid verbal remarks and real racism.
Todays issue is real violence, even here, against Jews.
That’s racism.
You never argued with them, or engaged them.
That’s a shame.
When you have a small business in a town of 10,000 people it's not really wise to argue with your customers. Aside from being boycotted, what good would it do. I don't see my mission in life as trying to change people's beliefs. What you believe is your business and has nothing to do with me. Now, if you want to argue the merrits of various health supplements, I'll be happy to engage you. But your beliefs? Never.
This has been my point from the beginning! Two to three generations of Palestinians have been force fed this poison, and countless others before them have listened to the religious leaders quoting from their holy book about the elimination of the Jews. The patient is poisoned, and the prognosis is fatal.
Five or six generations. AT A MINIMUM.
Agreed. A very seemingly pious Palestinian Orthodox Christian woman who attended our church HATED the Israelis. She literally turned into another person when speaking of it. She became so emotional, she could barely speak of her deep-seated hatred.
Maybe you should send this interesting post to colleges, such as Harvard, Cornell and Columbia---oh, and let's not forget Stanford! Thought these kids were smart, but wow, they are unbelievably stupid!
I'd like to "Like" this because I think you're right about Muslim attitudes towards Jews among Palestinians, by and large.
(Having lived in the South in my teen years, I saw LOTS of anti-Black racism, on a weekly basis. It's much better now. But that stuff dies hard, probably dies with those people. Kinda like...?)
After listening to this, how can anybody vote for a socialists/democrat:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/fbi-director-goes-silent-when-asked-simple-question/ar-AA1jfiSM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=d2f146ec00024939986a712554acd407&ei=9
It is complicated. Here's my take: I was married to a Hamas-educated Palestinian who fantasized about running away from me and his kids to join Hezbollah, because they appeared to have more balls. I talked him out of it. I am half Jewish. He used to volunteer at the campus Hillel, teaching those poor Jews how to make a proper falafel. His mother had been concerned about our marriage; his father said don't worry about it, she'll never make him secretly eat pork, Jews make good wives, don't let this little political mess between the Jews and Arabs ruin our son's chances of marrying a nice woman. During the 2nd Intifada, we were at a dinner party and everyone was talking about who in their family back at home had been killed recently "by the Jews." It was very uncomfortable. I reminded people that I was half Jewish. They started talking about Adam Shapiro, some Jewish human rights man who was "going to marry one of our girls!" and about "netueri carta" the anti-Zionist Jewish group, and some old Muslim story about nice Jews or giving charity to an old Jew - I don't remember. I never sensed actual anti semitism among them. There were always plenty of Jews at the protests against Israel, and many expressed fear that pro-Israel types would attack them on their way to their car (like the creators of the Self Hating Israel Threatening List people). Buff young Muslim men would vy for the honor of walking Jewish people to their cars as security. It was considered very honorable for a Muslim to protect a friendly Jew. Muslim jurisprudence is not simple, neither is Muslim history. There is a lot of bad, but there is a reason that there were historically far more Christians and Jews in Muslim lands than there were Jews and Muslims under Christian rule. Just as people hijack Christianity and Judaism to do heinous things, so do they hijack Islam. I'm divorced and have plenty of awful tales to tell and to not tell, but none of them involve anti-semitism. Additionally, my ex husband was from a middle class family, and extremely successful academically. He was rather radical - became radical after our marriage, though he thought 9-11 was an abomination and bragged to me that in his culture only women are allowed to hijack airplanes, because women are more sensible and peaceful, they need men to help them hijack airplanes but only the women give orders, that way people don't have to die. Anyway, his radicalism, I now see, was probably like the radicalism we see (and have long seen) on elite campuses today. The Middle East elite espouse a different, but parallel radicalism. Damn armchair terrorist, my ex. But he loved my Jewish father, and once asked if he could be on the SHIT List.
Thank you for sharing a personal perspective built on knowing many Muslims closely. Sad to see so many people unable to let go on the deep stereotypes they have. Imagine having one friend, who you are not even close with, have so much power over you they decided how you think of millions. I pray for @kevin Durant? and others here to let God lift this curse of stereotyping from their eyes so we can get to work on the real issues. When we think “all Muslims hate Jews” we are slapping the God of Abraham in the face and sucking off the devil of the world, to put it how I feel it.
It is the religion or rather the interpretation of the religion. I know anti semites but they are Christian or agnostic….few and far between though.
I have one Muslim friend so let me tell you what "the Muslims" think. It's undeniable -- you can see it in their eyes on TV.
Bred into them and read into them via the Koran.
I have Muslims and Jews in the same family. Also Hindus, Sikhs converted to Christianity and Zoroastrians who are also Indians, Pakistanis, Germans, Austrians, Americans and Brits. All effectively non-practicing but that's just another indication that it is possible an it exists.
A June 2023 poll asked Gazans what they think.
If an election were to happen, would they vote for a Fatah candidate or the current hamas ruler?
Both scenarios resulted in a hamas win, both by over 2:1.
Asked about if they wanted more violent armed groups, 79% of Gazans said yes.
You can make a very good case for trying to avoid civilian deaths in Gaza and be saddened by innocent victims. But Gazans did support hamas.
https://pcpsr.org/en/node/944 the results are in sections 3 and 5
I also doubt whether any sort of fair poll can be conducted in Gaza.
A truism:
MULE TRADERS
Curtis & Leroy saw an ad in the Herald-Citizen in Cookeville, Tn. and bought a mule for $100.
The farmer agreed to deliver the mule the next day.
The next morning the farmer drove up and said, "Sorry, fellows, I have some bad news, the mule died last night ."
Curtis & Leroy replied, "Well, then just give us our money back."
The farmer said, "Can't do that. I went and spent it already."
They said, "OK then, just bring us the dead mule."
The farmer asked, "What in the world ya'll gonna do with a dead mule?"
Curtis said, "We gonna raffle him off."
The farmer said, "You can't raffle off a dead mule!"
Leroy said, "We shore can! Heck, we don't hafta tell nobody he's dead!"
A couple of weeks later, the farmer ran into Curtis & Leroy at the IGA grocery store and asked, “What'd you fellers ever do with that dead mule?”
They said, "We raffled him off like we said we wuz gonna do."
Leroy said, "Shucks, we sold 1000 tickets fer two dollars apiece and made a profit of $1,998.00.
The farmer said, "My Lord, didn't anyone complain?"
Curtis said, "Well, the feller who won got upset. So, we gave him his two dollars back."
Curtis and Leroy now work for the government.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Limit all U.S. politicians to two Terms.
One in office
One in prison
LOL
This group knows how to do a poll. They've been at it a long time and have earned a great deal of respect. If you want to know what Palestinians are thinking at any given time, this is the place to go.
If you want to know what Gazans think at any one time, ask Hamas, they'll tell you. Just cut out the poor middle man who risks everything to speak truth to certain death.
"Asked about if they wanted more violent armed groups, 79% of Gazans said yes."
Well, it's difficult to dissent when the result might be death for doing so....
Yet 21% did.
When you lay with dogs, chances are you’ll get fleas.
Do we make the same excuses for Germans during the Nazi era?
In on of the videos, it said 73% of Gazans thought hamas was corrupt. The reference was the same polling org I used in my comment.
I’m avoiding watching the videos because all my sympathies are with the Israelis and any concern for collateral damage lessens the result of eliminating Hamas.
But…are any of these innocents willing to give information on who is Hamas? Are they willing to show where tunnel access and ventilation points are? Perhaps there’s an invitation for safety away from this.
I’ll wait for answers.
"I’m avoiding watching the videos because all my sympathies are with the Israelis..."
What else is new?
Nothing. Muslims have been hating Jews since 621.
And vice versa.
Normal for that region.
666
666
Translated to “I’m too afraid to face the discomfort of hearing harrowing perspective that could change my world view”
Remember, Sloan....you must believe everything the IDF/Israel says....
That is the final, most essential, command of TFP.
Hamas is at the Four Seasons in Qatar.
I have little doubt that the vignettes used to illustrate the author's point. But as other have pointed out, history has shown that the urge for self-preservation while living under repressive regimes is a powerful force when the odds greatly favor those that are subject to ad hoc "laws" and stout, gray, unwelcoming prisons.
I am sure they feel comfortable being honest about dogging a regime that gives preferential treatment (food, healthcare, general living standards) and beats and murders their civilians for their sexual orientation or clothes they wear. It's fair to say political polling in Gaza is unlikely to produce truthful outcomes with very high standard errors.
Nope. These folks are good at what they do. They've got 30+ years doing this
They even have a lot of respect in the west. Just today noticed the organization's leader being interviewed by Carnegie Foundation.
I spent a decade of my life as an executive at Nielsen Media as well as have been involved in political polling. Not buying it one bit. Shoot, I know many people today, in the free US o A, who are afraid to give their honest opinion on excellently designed polls; so, they lie -- that cancel culture phenom. Starvation and death creates more pronounced barriers. Regardless, it's illogical to think that people want to live under these barbaric standards.
Many of Gaza civilians followed Hamas militants after they breached the fences and ravaged and took hostages with the same animal brutality. Based on that fact, they seem pretty comfortable with “these barbarically standards”. I think we, westerners, erroneously project our norms on people of different religion and culture.
It is said that we westerners view the Palestinian culture with eyes conditioned by the western-European tradition.
I fully agree. I also fully support more cultures being instructed by our success in assuring personal freedom.
No doubt they way they indoctrinate starting at very young ages has an impact, but this is easily overcome with freedom and economic prosperity that raises all boats which will not be hard to do under leadership that starves and beats their own. Still, the adults who have lived under this barbarism learn over time that it's not good for them. Those allegiances are tied to survival and lifestyle like not starving and having housing and healthcare. The ones who are part of Hamas are hopeless and will hopefully lose power.
Dear Dana, you sound like a very nice but idealistic person. I hope you are right. From what I understand, their goal is martyrdom. They are proud to die for their cause and that's how they raise their children from a very young age, as you said yourself. They don't value life, and I don't see how housing and healthcare factor in when they dream they will be awarded in afterlife for killing as many Jews as possible, according to teachings of Koran. How can we, Jews, negotiate with or trust people who do not consider us human? They can dress it as a fight for freedom against apartheid or colonization, and Hamas is very cunning in that regard and successfully manipulates public opinion. With all our achievements and progress, the human race does not seem to become wiser or kinder in the last two or three thousand years as far as hatred of Jews goes. What makes it so dangerous is that SJWs across the globe have taken their side and play into the hands of terrorist murderers. But I hope you are right, and there is light somewhere at the end. I wanted to say "tunnel' but thought of Gaza underground tunnels LOL.
It was illogical and daft to go along with the Kung Flu nonsense; but the vast majority complied with the idiocy.
We are talking about survival which, frankly, would be the same logical reasoning many went along with any threats to life like disease, but, in terms of things like access to food and healthcare, there's not much humans will not do to survive including supporting a barbaric regime. We have many examples in history of this compliance to survive.
How would one verify the accuracy and truthfulness of the answers given?
Even if you think the polls are biased (either from simple lying or from residents fear of dissing Hamas), there's no arguing with the hundreds of thousands of people who celebrated in Gaza on Oct 7th. That the best "poll" I can think of.
People engaging in coerced celebrations (picture Stalin's Russia or N Korea today) for PR purposes are obvious. The video from Gaza City on Oct 7th was not coerced. Those people were happy that hundreds of Israelites were tortured or dead.
Then there's the fact that Hamas won elections in Gaza and the West Bank PA refuses to call elections because they know they would lose to Hamas. Actions speak louder than words.
Yes, ordinary Gazans support Hamas. The Free Press is clueless about Islam.
While many on the masthead of the Free Press are of the Jewish faith, those editors and writers have created a news organization worthy of the news that they are reporting. Their bias is real, and it shows. But the subject matter easily lends itself to those biases.
That's why I spend the money to have a subscription.
Your proof. Or, is it just easier to understand that when oppressed by cruel people like Hamas, why would anyone ever take the chance your words would end up in the wrong ears?
They have self selected by whether they have moved south of the Wadi Gaza. Still in the line of fire? Probably a Hamas supporter. Better off without them.
Good to know you support genocide of humans who differ from you.
If they differ in that they support psychopathic torture and murder of innocents, I'm perfectly content with a genocidal program limited in scope to those who act in such support. So if you are not Hamas and still north of the Wadi Gaza, come out with your hands up.
Somehow all the Germans snared in the contracting sovereign area of the Third Reich in 1944 and 1945 were uniformly opposed to the genocidal policy of Hitler. Yet also somehow these policies were enacted with majority support or at least acquiescence earlier in Hitler's reign. So I'm going with the less complicated view that if you are north of the Wadi, it is your responsibility to affirmatively demonstrate your non-support of Hamas, perhaps by revealing a Hamas hideout.
But also never forget that many, many Gazan somebodies stood by and allowed tunneling under schools and hospitals at a time when Gazans enjoyed self determination. The Allies in '44 and '45 didn't stop to check the loyalties of the ordinary Germans they encountered. It was, "Come out with your hands up" time and failing that, expect a bullet. That those Germans regretted either supporting or looking the other way while a murderous gang grew within them isn't an acceptable excuse or defense.
I will happily genocide anyone who actively and genuinely supports the medieval death cult called Hamas.
And you include all innocent children and women in Gaza? This is the issue. Humans are humans. You believe in mass murder for religious differences? God help your neighbors. Evangelical Christians believe if you do not know Jesus, you are nothing. How does this balance with their words of support for Isreali Jews? Nothing is as it seems.
If a terrorist was shooting at you and your children, would you not kill them to save your family? Of course you would. Rightly so. Hamas is dedicated to murdering innocent Jews and Israelis, and as a result, its members can and should be killed whenever they try.
Do I include "all Gazans" in that? No. Do I include innocents in that? No. Do I believe in mass murder for religious differences? That's ridiculous, this isn't about religious differences. I believe in killing people who are actively trying to kill me and my family, and that is not only legal, it's profoundly moral. As I said, you would too.
Why would adult women get a pass? They're as much adults as men, so if they're actively helping Hamas murder innocent Israelis, they die too.
I give all children a pass because kids don't have agency to make those decisions.
Evangelical Christians (not all, but too many) love and support Israelis and Israel for one cynical reason--they need the Jews to re-unite in the "Holy Land" in order for the Rapture to begin. In other words, they need to save the Jews so the Jews can be slaughtered on Earth as True Believers get Raptured to Heaven.
Israelis understand what they're about, and while they're happy to take their money and support, they do not confuse Evangelical "love" with actual love.
You're a little confused on your theology. You might look for an Alpha group online to understand all of this better. The main reason many Christians support Israel has more to do with loving God and loving the Son of Man--a Jew--the King of Israel. Everything else is God's timing. I don't know a single Christian trying to make the rapture happen. This doesn't mean Christians support Israel's policies or attack against Gaza, but it does mean they will think twice before standing against God's chosen. I also don't know a single Christian that doesn't want the very best for both Jews and Muslims. I am sure they are out there, but they have misunderstood Christ's point entirely.
"Evangelical Christians believe if you do not know Jesus, you are nothing. How does this balance with their words of support for Isreali Jews? Nothing is as it seems."
That's because your take on what Evangelical Christians believe is wrong. They (for the most part) believe all people are valued by God, and that Jesus died to make salvation available to all.
As far as I could tell when as a Jew I began attending evangelical church, the people there have a genuine respect for Jews as some of God's people. No doubt this varies by region.
Turning the other cheek has a special resonance for beheaded babies. If you are unsettled by the extermination of vermin, look the other way. If you are a Gazan who stood by - and the majority did or this couldn't have gotten as far as it did - Karma's a bitch.
Have you read the accounts of IDF bombing in southern Gaza after telling people to move there? There are plenty of Gaza's fearful of losing their homes and ending up in relocation. Be Cranky but be honest.
The explanation was to destroy Hamas check points keeping Gazans from going south. Highly believable.
I do not agree that it's good riddance, as I'm some were unable to move south that wanted to, but it definitely goes to show us that not 79% of Gazas agree to be martyrs for Hamas. That's something! At least a step in the right direction. I think we can agree that those that moved south are not all in for Hamas.
War crimes are war crimes, whatever the excuse. The trials will come later, and there will be very little sympathy at that point for the perceived exigencies and the rationalizations.
There will be no "trials", only accusations and recriminations, and a lot of breast beating.
Tell that to the Nazis that Israel has hunted down since the end of WWII.
Only the winners write the history. This one is not yet decided, and certainly the "world community" is not kindly disposed toward the Israelis.
When have they really? When has Israel let world opinion stop them from accomplishing their believes in righteous goals. Not being judgmental. I actual admire their self reliance.
In their battles with Hamas, and Hezbollah in the north, Israel HAS bowed to eventual world pressure to cease fire. And in EVERY case, it only helped Israel's enemies. THIS time, though, MIGHT be different. Perhaps they will follow through. But there WILL be a price to pay. Not only will their citizens lament the loss of Israeli lives and treasure, they will also lose the acceptance of the few Arab nations that now have non-belligerent relations with them. But, I believe, those same Arab nations will privately let loose a great sigh of relief that Hamas is gone.
Seems like the Hague is already involved, anyway. Should be fun to watch.
I've seen a lot of comments about the credibility of the organization I cited.
In the video which cites the 73% of people who think hamas is corrupt (2nd video I think, near the end), the source is the same survey group as I cited in my comment.
Todays NYT The Daily was an interview with a woman who had just completed an entire month of polling in Gaza and she explained the poll and her results and they were very different from what you just said I would recommend a listen
If Hamas is as corrupt and dictatorial as some say, would they answer Fatah? Obviously they had support when they were ‘elected’ and set up the govt.
Without living there how do we know?
Gazans seem to have voted for Hamas because they thought Hamas would be far less weak and corrupt than Fatah, and would pursue a two-state with Israel.
It was fair of them to think the former--Fatah is a terrible organization--but pure, sheer fantasy to think Hamas would ever pass up the chance to kill a Jew.
What was the final vote percentage break down between Hamas and Fatah?
666
2:1. They asked 2 questions. Head to head elections with the current hamas leader vs the current president and head to head elections of the current hamas leader vs the current prime minister.
In both cases, Gazans went with the current hamas leader by margins over 2:1.
What was the final vote/total percentage in the election? What % did Hamas get and what % did Fatah get?
666
Buy a new keyboard.
666
Lol!!
What do you want to bet he won't answer? You can't be the only coward on here.
666
I said it before & I'll say it again. In America thousands are declaring their fidelity to an evil, barbarous group of Nazis. These "protestors" are ecstatic over the murder, rape, torture, burning & kidnaping of infants, children, adolescents & elderly people solely because they're Jews. It's nothing more than classic, ingrained JewHatred. I'm sick of hearing the only answer is a two state solution. It would be wonderful if brought to fruition but it's a Bubba Misa, a Fairy Tale. This concept has been rejected by the Arabs in 1936, 1948, Camp David & Oslo. "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us" Golda Meir. Israel is, was & will always be between a rock & a hard place. I'd be afraid to walk the streets of NYC as a Jew. Yes, go live with the Palestinians because they love you! RIGHT.
Best, and in my opinion, the most accurate and effective comment I’ve read. Thank you.
Just guessing about 1/10,000, or fewer, Gazans think Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state.
I checked and I’m not seeing any information about how frequently the Germans lost their utility services.
How much sympathy should I feel for the Hitler Youth? They got tricked into it I guess. It’s still the Hitler Youth. I’m thinking it’s wise to limit the sympathy.
Palestine is way worse than Nazi Germany, it is just smaller.
Between the bombing of Pearl Harbor and VJ Day, there was absolutely no internet service in Japan. None. Not even dial up. Oh, the humanity!
Their cell phones didn’t work either. It was horrible.
War truly is hell.
Fortunately for us Israel’s existence does not depend on whether or not Gazans think we have a right to exist. Let them get their own house in order first.
Right, because people choose to be starved, beaten, thrown of the tops of building and murdered by their leaders. Makes total sense.
I disagree. Even reading this article depicts that the opposite may be true. Either way, the vast majority of the population especially in Gaza and to a large extent the West Bank are raised on 24/7 propaganda and thus making this hatred a result of nurture rather than nature. The process of normalization is an extremely slow one but it has to be the ultimate goal. It might take a few decades to get to the point of relations that Israel shares with Egypt and a maybe a millenia to get to the next stage, but nevertheless there are no other options.
Yes, I have taken into account that Jews have been persecuted during the vast majority of their existence, but it's a different time with aasymetic weapons (cyber)and the capability to wipe cities off the face of the earth which gives me hope that different outcomes are possible.
Yes, Hamas is bad, and Gazans know it. That's not a revelation.
Sadly, however, the proverb about "the enemy of my enemy" doesn't necessarily pertain.
That's 2300 people. They need to step up and out Hamas loudly. Otherwise they can just go to slaughter with the rest of the Palestinian sheep
Those who step up will go to certain slaughter. Hamas has no intention of ever losing power, and the rule with an iron fist that would make Stalin stare with wonder.
The only hope for Palestinian liberation is liberation from Hamas. And that can only come with pressure and assistance from the free world. Alas if the rest of the world wasn't so busy wishing death on Israel, they could help the Palestinians achieve their dreams of a normalized and peaceful country on the beach with a thriving tourist industry and a robust economy. But alas, it's just too hard to resist piling onto the Jews - oops sorry Israel - to want to help the Palestinians. So round and round we go.
Forgive my cynicism, but the incessant drumbeat of "death to Jews" is hard to ignore.
I'm not suggesting they take on Hamas directly, but start helping their fellow innocents get out. Start helping Israel find and uproot the terrorists. They may not be them, but they know them
Source?
The man said 'guessing'.
Some people have poor reading comprehension skills. I read "just guessing" and took it at face value.
You wish
Guess what. I. Don’t. Care.
There are very few, if any “innocent Palestinians” in Gaza. Why is it Israel’s job to take care of the people that want Israel destroyed, want all Jews worldwide killed and that voted for Hamas and got the land that really does belong to Israel? They HAD to have the Gaza Strip. They got it. And they are unable to govern it because they share a border with Israel and that, to them is an abomination. Why can’t Egypt or Jordan or Lebanon take care of these Arabs we call Palestinians. Why does NO other country want them? Could it be that they are indoctrinated terrorists? They are the most pampered, entitled, whiniest, laziest most aggressively violent refugees in history. They are happy to be kept as pawns in the perpetual “game” of who is to Blame for the fact that Jews have one ancient homeland. It brings in a lot of “humanitarian aid.” They are happy to die for the cause. Martyrdom pays quite well in all Palestinian enclaves.
58% of Gaza's support Hamas. Yet support for other terrorist groups is far higher in the Strip, with 71% of Gazans having a positive opinion of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad group, 61% having a positive opinion of the Nasser Salah al-Din Brigades terror organization, 64% who said they had a positive view of the ruling Palestinian Authority faction of Fatah, and 74% who had a positive view of the Lion’s Den, a relatively new Islamist terror group established in Samaria. I’m not great at math but to me these numbers add up to pretty much 100% support for ANY terrorist government that promises to annihilate Israel.
They started this war with Israel and HaShem willing Israel will end it once and for all.
Am Yisrael Chai
Marcy, I do like the cut of your jib.
So well said
Egypt has a long history of closing the border for these Egyptians--even prior to 1948. The Gazans are (like Yassir Arafat) largely Egyptian and Bedouin: https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-minister-interior-and-national-security-fathi-hammad-slams-egypt-over-fuel-shortage-gaza
I hate to cast shade on this glimmer of hope, but a 2023 poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Social Research found that a plurality of Gazans, 38%, thought the foundation of Hamas was the most positive development in the history of the Palestinians (37% of German voters voted for Hitler in 1933), and another reputable poll of Palestinians recently indicated that over 70% approved of the October 7th massacre. So just because they hate Hamas doesnt mean it won’t take generations of reeducation for them to stop hating and wanting to kill Jews. With the UNRWA doing the education, of course, that day probably will never come.
It’s possible that they hate Hamas’ corruption but agree with their sentiments about Jews and Israelis.
I sure hope this is true and that with Hamas gone, Gazans will at least accept Israeli rule temporarily but I think millions of minds have been poisoned by a well of Jew hate so strong that it will take decades to move past this.
Egypt turned Gaza over to Israel in 1967 and wanted to return it; Egypt wanted no part of it. Sharon thought he was turning Gaza over to P A control but Hamas won the election and fought their “ brothers “ to gain control. There is no answer but to destroy Hamas and hope the PA will help. I’m not hopeful.
Fatah/PLO is just the same... but far less competent. Thankfully.
Fatah has always pretended. Not very well in recent decades.
While I don't doubt that the voices Braude brings are genuine, I think they are unrepresentative. As for the voice in the last video, spinning a sweet dream of peace and reconciliation, Israelis have heard lots of such voices in the past, telling them things they want to hear. By now most of them no longer believe such voices; they've been taken in time and again, only to find out (as on Oct. 7) that the voices are a lie. However there are some Israelis who believe compulsively in such voices and are emotionally incapable of comprehending that facts give them the lie. I note that the head of this "voices from Gaza" organization is not a Palestinian but a Jew. He wants to think well of ordinary Gazans and wants his compatriots to think well of them too. I am very skeptical of the judgment of the messenger and the veracity of the message.
I’m always an optimist but a few voices won’t change the thought and action patterns of most Gazans. They hate the Jewish people and want them exterminated. Sucks but it’s just the facts.
While I do feel for the 'every-day Gazans' not aligned with Hamas, all they have to do is 'rat out' the Hamas members to the IDF and this could go a long ways towards taking care of the problem. Of course it would be risky, but there must be some way that technology could be leveraged to allow this to happen. It seems as though it's either that or risk being killed in the justified Israeli strikes.
I’d love to believe that these voices are typical of Palestinians. But multiple polls show not only support for Hamas, but support for killing Israelis, specifically Jews, in order to “liberate” all of Israel for Palestinians. Even in the West Bank, where conditions are much better, there is such strong support for Hamas that Abbas will not hold elections as he knows Hamas would win.
If there truly were large numbers of Palestinians who want a future more than they want Israel’s destruction, there would be hope for peace. While I’d love to be proven wrong, I remain skeptical that this is true.
Well one would hope these voices are but a small part of a larger disaffection with Hamas. That’s kind of hard to believe however upon seeing the cheering that goes on when strikes against Israel or like during 9 11 occur. Or the children yelling death to Israel or the props given to the families of “martyrs”.
If you’re skeptical about the Palestinian’s desire for freedom, notice that there has never been an Arab or Muslim state that has survived as a functioning democracy with real civil rights. Not a single one. And yet, if you resist the importation of such authoritarianism into your western country, you’re branded Islamophobic.
The majority voted the terrorists in. I feel sorry for the civilized minority who did not.
So what about Qatar? Their Foreign Minister wrote an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal outlining their role in the peacekeeping efforts in this war. It’s my understanding they house the heads of Hamas. So, they protect Hamas, launder money and negotiate for the hostages? Sure. And as one of life’s ironies, the very people who support Hamas/Qatar are ignorant of the slave labor Qatar used to build their stadiums for the World Cup. Soccer good=slavery okay?
You can include Erdogan of Turkey as well, who is claiming a new Ottoman Empire, including Jerusalem, Greece, and elsewhere (ethnic cleansing of Christians in Nagorno-Karabakh) and is also actively supporting Hamas and Muslim Brotherhood (and remains a NATO member(.
Erdogan is opportunistically adopting the Woke "oppressor v oppressed" garbage of "anti-colonisation". That would be a big lottery win for him to have the pre WW1 territory of the Ottoman Empire (waaah! Empire! Surely only wicked white people stole land for Empires?!) restored because guilt ridden ignorant Harvard students feel compelled to assuage their white supremacist colonialist oppressor guilt syndrome
Haha, so hilarious that anyone would bill the Ottoman Empire (let alone its retaking) as anti-colonial!! As if the Arabs, esp Palestinians, Jordanians, etc didn't fight to overthrow it 100 yrs ago. Maybe they can bring back slavery and dhimmitude too. (Look that up, children.) Not to mention those nice Ottoman tortures that IS & AQ revived (and apparently used on Kibbutzim).
shocking but true. I was googling around about the Ottoman Empire a few months back and found links that are glaring historical revisions for anyone educated pre 1990s. The Woke cannot allow the possibility that any empire building oppressor has a single cell of melanin in their skin, or was anything other than a noble warrior from an oppressed ethnicity, or their flimsy and stupid contention that white western civilisation is the root of all evil falls apart.
Consider this, there is currently a push on X, mainly dominated by Muslim pro-Palestrinian activists and uber-Woke leftists, to claim that Jews are "white" people....
That way one can no longer be "antisemitic" presto chango
YES! Qatar with our US base and Iran and all the money Biden sent their way. Trump at least had sanctions. They've taken billions in aid to line their pockets. Why isn't anyone going after the leaders? What about Biden publicly supporting a two-state solution while blocking it at the UN? Are our leaders just trying to create wars to support the billionaires in an attempt to keep their own power? It seems obvious to go after the Hamas leaders and their money.
Hmm. So what does all this mean? In times of war our soldiers should treat their civilians as hapless victims because they live under authoritarian rule? But their side is free to make no distinction between civilians and military because our civilians can stand up and oppose the actions of our military? Pleeze! War is hell and if you think civilians are “innocent,” then what are your soldiers “guilty” of? Protecting you?
Using civilians as human sheilds is a war crime. Taking hostages is a war crime.
God bless the IDF for its stenuous efforts to avoid civilian casualties.