I'm not Jewish and I live in a postcard kind of town. What hit me on October 7 like a sharp blow to the stomach was how fine the line was between barbarism and the civilization we take for granted. Thousands of men, celebrated by millions, could maniacally behead, burn alive, dismember, put babies in ovens, rip babies from the womb, throw a grenade in a father's lap, chop off hands and feet so that young women could not fight back against rape, or rape a corpse in the bed of a pick up truck, parade mutilated bodies and terrified hostages through the streets - not once, but 1200 times. That's a bone-chilling threat to civilization itself. It was justified or celebrated by far too many college students and "progressives." Taking out the evil isn't optional- living next to Hamas is akin to living next door to Hannibal Lecter, sans the mask, after he's already killed and eaten half your family. But he has a "right" to be there, say some- and roam free, and do it again. For Israel, it's 40,000-60,000 Hannibal Lecters. Nobody sane would agree to that. The vile Hamas uses babies as shields. The men certainly seem to be protecting themselves.
Let us say it openly, the men of Hamas who use women and children as shields are not men. They are cowards, willing to sacrifice the helpless so that they may survive a little longer.
Let’s put those Hamas “creatures” aside. What’s up with our most powerful women who were advocating and still are for any female victims BUT NOT JEWISH WOMEN? And the world is still praising and give platform to Michelle Obama and Oprah and others, who turned out to be total hypocrites?! Obama was just interviewed and whined endlessly how she as a black woman is not treated fairly? But journalist never asked her opinion about unfair treatment of Israeli women and girls. Privileged and disgusting!!!
To be fair, I have never seen any main stream journalists ask the Obama’s any hard questions or challenge them on their opinions, (I could be wrong but I haven’t seen it) not just this issue. Occasionally I have seen Oprah made to squirm. To me the MSM has always seemed to fawn over them & run cover for them when anything unpleasant happened.
Remember South Africa girls school controversy? Did Oprah had to answer to any of those horrendous accusations? I don’t think so! It’s like black-on-black crime which has huge statistics but “shyly” kept hidden by all. Upside down world we live in...
Very true. I saw an interview a few years ago with m. Obama where she said she was concerned if her daughters went out they might be shot by a cop. First, most likely, a secret service agent would take the bullet but her bigger concern should be them being shot by a black man.
NOW is nothing but a female propaganda group for the Dem/Commie Party. Years ago they were silent when Bill Clinton was raping Juanita Broderick and of molesting women.
At the same time Clinton was being Clinton, NOW was screaming for the resignation of Bob Packwood a Rep senator from Oregon for groping women but silent on Clinton's far more egregious acts.
Bari isn’t yet brave enough to renounce being a Democrat, takes time to unwind from such thick propaganda. It’s unfortunate that it took Oct 7 to illuminate for her the rank hypocrisy at play. The West’ ‘left’ reaction of Hamas support was no surprise at all to those of us watching the oppressor vs. victim dichotomy that’s captured much of our youth. They have been taught to see oppressors everywhere. You see it’s not antisemitism at all. It’s instead just fighting back against that oppressor, Israel. And when you do that, all actions by those opposing the oppressor are excused and tolerated.
Support HAMAS. Vote Democrat. The left no only hates Israel but they hate the U.S.
Every election cycle the Dem/Commies yell about white supremist groups, disgusting organizations, but when was the last time you saw marches of tens of thousand white hate groups fill the streets of London, New York and large groups on university campuses screaming for the blood of Jews?
You will never see it because the main stream left far out numbers white hate groups. The main stream left are call Democrats. So once again I say, "Support Hamas. Vote Democrat."
My guess is that feminists in the West are as appalled as you by the atrocities committed against Jewish women on Oct. 7. After all, most of the leaders of Second Wave American Feminism, from Steinem on down, were Jews! But Israel has now killed twenty times as many Palestinian women as Hamas killed Jewish ones. So attention must be paid by feminists to that as well. And don't forget how much American Second Wave feminism, led by Jews, has always attached itself closely to "Peace Studies" and antagonism to war. in general, because of the devastating effects of war on women and children. This is a very morally complex situation. I suspect that Jews who want to take satisfaction in the slaughter of 24,000 Palestinians because such Jews want to see all of Gaza as "Amalek" simply have a much more simplistic moral calculus in this horrible situation, starting with the horrors of Oct. 7, than most feminists, Jews and Gentiles alike, are likely to have.
Nice thought, but even on the sickening, bargain day, the “feminists” were silent. Second wave feminists have been replaced by the later “intersectionality delusionists.” Witness “the squad”, etc. They have proven themselves to be horrifically anti-Jew, anti-Christian.
That is the classical definition of moral relativism. Fred, you are too White to sell this Hamas propaganda. It does not look good on you. Israel does not kill women and children intentionally, and that is the key difference for anybody who is not soaked in racial identity politics.
What’s this “white” stuff? As you know, Jews and Arabs are just two different tribes of the same colored Semites. Arabs are every bit as Semitic as Jews, and vice versa. No surprise historically that both groups are as filled with hatred of the other tribe as different tribes of the same Semites have always been. It’s a defining characteristic of all Semites to be radically tribal and to especially hate members of other Semitic tribes. That’s what Semites do, whether they are Hamas, or Likudniks salivating over the prospect of wiping out the Amalek tribe called Gazans: men, women, children, and animals. As Kurtz says in Heart: “Exterminate all the brutes.”
Semites is a reference to the linguistic group, not a color. White is apparently your name, and your superior frame of reference is not restrained by a lack of subject-matter knowledge.
That’s what Semites do, eh? Oh yes, all that brotherly love that Europeans have shown each other over the centuries. how many wars? How many millions killed butchered? Wow Europeans make the Semites look like pikers in terms of murdering each other. But you go with your bigotry I guess I’ll go with mine.
Yes, just as sanctions killed a million children in Saddam's Iraq. Not. You are listening to Lord Haw Haw in the Blitz, pal. Sorry, I'd shoot you on sight.
Wait. Aren't you English? What are you going to shoot anyone with? You're not allowed as much as a pointy object in genuflecting kowtowing king worshipping butlerlandia.
True. But those women are complicit IMO. As are the children even though I accept the standard of Western law that children below the age of majority are incapable of making legal decisions.
Israel does not understand it. Bari does not understand it. Michael Oren does not understand it. Shadi Hamid does not understand it. Einat Wilf does not understand it. Bruno Macaes does not understand it. Haviv Gur does not fully understand it. Andrew Sullivan does not understand it.
In the muslim world, the problem, as El-Sisi said, "The problem is islam." The word means "submission" not peace. The theology is warfare, blessing slaughter of any who refuse to convert, slaughter of captives for resisting attack, rape for recreation, torture (and specifically burning alive), assassination of critics, slavery, sex slavery, castration of male slaves. The theology says that all non-muslims are required to pay for the privilege of staying alive, and support muslims on their backs because muslims are the only right rulers of the world. This is a crude, black-hearted, medieval creed. It is, perhaps, a step up from mass human sacrifice, but in today's world, it has no place in human society. Without facing this, squarely, and calling out this worse than Nazi creed, there is no real address to the root of the problem.
If I read another ass-clown like Haviv Gur purporting to be an "analyst" babble about Assad's butchery, I will vomit. In context, that is no different than those who jabber about the poor Gazans or poor Hamas! Assad bent over backwards for a decade to bring the Muslim brotherhood into Syrian politics. Assad released "political prisoners" en masse. Their response was attacks and assassinations, invasions of schools to kill teachers and professors. So, Assad circled the village that housed the clan that was the root of the Muslim brotherhood in Syria, killed them all, and bulldozed it into the sand. This worked. This is, in fact, what Israel must do in Gaza. You have seen the razor-wire the Egypt erected to keep Gazans out of Egypt? Egypt would do it if necessary to prevent that monstrous camp from infecting their nation. What Assad did is the only thing that will work against the children raised to be monsters for allah.
In the USA? There is a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist cadre of self-appointed philosopher would-be king-dictators centered in New York. (They came out of philosophy departments, mostly on the coasts.) They have a wealthy Wall Streeter who funded and ran the Occupy movement. They found Occupy wanting because even though they diligently made sure that no solution came out of Occupy, the people of America did not take to the streets with guns. They had no rabble-army to ride to overthrow of the country. (I heard them myself talking about exactly this.) Those cadre turned to advising islamists on Maoist tactics of war in Pakistan. (I heard them talking about this.) So, of course those sociopathic little manipulators would choose to side with violent islamists here in the USA. Those dimwitted, vicious children of privilege actually believe that they could ride a wave of islamist militants to overthrow the USA, and that they could manipulate things to be the dictators-in-charge. For our own good. Of course. Why? Because they, just like you, do not comprehend the power of fanatical religion. Religion is the opiate of the masses, and they are mentally incapable of taking seriously any religious group.
This inability to comprehend fanatic religionists is shared by our foreign policy "experts" who routinely support and ally with islamists all over the world if it seems convenient to use them as proxy warfare actors. (I'm speaking of Hilary Clinton, Joe Biden, Antony Blenken, etc.) Regime change by our government is very similar to regime change by our home-grown Marxist-Leninist-Maoists who are frustrated that Americans don't want civil war.
You in the media, Bari, Haviv, Oren, and the rest --- you know who those people are. You know who that Wall Streeter is who funded Occupy. You liked Occupy basically, and thought it was a nice thing. So did I, until I learned what they were doing at the top echelon. You just don't know what their real agenda is. You think that they are just nice leftie sorts wanting good things. They are not. They salivate for violent overthrow so they can rule, because, obviouisly to them, they are the smartest people ever. You also know who funded and architected the BLM riots and the buses that took core rioters from place to place. You know. You just don't pry deep enough. You don't really know what is going on there. And I don't think you want to know. It shakes up your view of the world.
Very well explained, thank you. The only quibble? That Israel doesn't know it.
I believe Israel knows its enemy perfectly well. What it can't do is act on it, not without the Israel-hating United Nations rounding up a coalition army to stop the "genocide Israel is inflicting on poor little freedom fighters who only want to worship their god as we do."
Doubt this? See how much shrieking the world is doing now, when Israel is not remotely genociding Gaza, only conducting a proper albeit brutal war? Killing the 7th Century Islamic theocrats and their armies of Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestine Jihad, the ayatollahs of Iran, and others would result in a world war--against Israel.
What Israel is doing in Gaza now is as close as it can get to wiping out the entire hornet's nest of Islamic whack jobs. It's not enough to end the problem, and barely enough to avoid crippling sanctions and sending of the world's UN armies into Jerusalem.
But Israel *knows* its real enemy, and it's what you describe.
I don't think so. Every Israeli, even the former head of Mossad, is hamstrung by Judaism, which is nothing like Islam. The former head of Mossad came out against the apartheid. Most people in Israel do not comprehend what Islam actually says. They recoil from it. Every Jew I have ever discussed this with has expressed that Islam is fundamentally similar, because it has to be since it's a religion. I speak as someone who has read articles from their defense journal. Just the fact that they routinely speak in terms of preserving the heads of the PLO Hamas and Hezbollah to negotiate them makes it clear.
The world war against you speak of would not happen if it was carried out quickly enough. The world would be shocked, but world war? No. There are also other methods, but we won't discuss that.
Nobody in the USA I talk to believes that the secret cadre running Occupy were Marxist-Leninist-Maoists bent on revolution. I was there. I got out and instantly took evasive action. Within 10 seconds the big beefy guy from the head office in New York came looking for me. We both know what that would have been about. I knew things they didn't want me to be able to tell. But understanding this, a whole lot makes sense since then, including them moving on to think they can ride an islamist rabble to overthrow this country's government.
"Every Jew I have ever discussed this with has expressed that Islam is fundamentally similar, because it has to be since it's a religion."
Very interesting. I'm Jewish, but absolutely understand that Islam is not a religion in the "Ten Commandments, Golden Rule, peace to all" way of Judaism and Christianity. Islam requires "submission"--it says so right in the name--and anyone who doesn't submit to Islamic rule is an infidel to be murdered.
I understand that most everyday people think all other religions are just like theirs: let's get along, we're bringing peace to the world. But it's hard to imagine that Western and Israeli leadership--particularly military--doesn't understand that theocratic Islam is radically different because it REQUIRES the death of anyone who isn't Muslim, and REQUIRES the nations of the world to submit to Islamic rule. How can they not know that? I know it and I'm no Patton or even Buck Private Gericke.
I know nothing about Occupy leadership so I will take your word as true. I do know that the founding leaders of BLM were hard-core Marxists who'd happily use Mao rules to impose their will. Fortunately for us, I think BLM was about the grift and the race shakedowns--give me money and nobody gets hurt--rather than world domination.
Is Occupy still a Thing, or has it pretty much died away? I read almost nothing about it any more.
That's good. I'm glad to have met a Jew that gets it. So many veer off into denial land.
The point of the discussion of Occupy leadership is that they have moved on. They took over the leadership of "the left" back then. They had control of "the left" then, and still do. Since then, BLM riots all over the country to move us toward civil war. Pro-Palestinian rally support now. They are still at it, a key cadre intent on overthrow from within. All they have to do is provide support at key moments and do what they can to throw their support behind X, Y, or Z. The "Our Revolution" people appear to be a voice for them. As with all politics, its not a single force that controls everything. We Americans frustrate the living daylights out of them. They, in turn, adapt and shift, searching for the formula that will bring "helter-skelter". (And there are foreign powers that are helping them, as we see on tik-tok. Would Xi make use of Maoists intent on overthrow? Would we do the reverse in China?)
Let's pretend that I think what you just said is stupid and indefensible; and that if you are speaking honestly, your own press, wherever you are, does nothing but lie to you.
What rational and fact based defense could you offer for what you just said? You have the opportunity. I simply doubt that you have the ability. It is and always has been hard to defend the indefensible.
But you have a platform. Do something other than embarrass yourself and your cause, if you can.
How? People won't watch things that they don't want to watch. On most issues, the truth is not far away, but will always remain far enough away to be denied by those committed to willful ignorance.
I am astonished daily by the contortions possible for those willing to make the effort. One undervalued aspect of honesty is that it is vastly less work over the long run than all its alternatives.
How? You have the Emergency Broadcast System. Every station, every network. Every YouTube channel. Everything. Give no one an option. War has come looking for us; this isn't a war of choice: this is existential, it is about time we all recognised that and took the gloves off.
Put snuff films on all the networks around the clock? I don't think that's going to fly.
And war has not come looking for us yet, outside of some shipping problems that mainly affect Europe. It probably will, but there is a small chance it may not. Putting Trump back in office would help a whole lot in that regard.
People in powerful positions already know what happened, they were presented with hard facts.
Like UN Women Organizations were fully informed and still said nothing for weeks?!
NYT accused Israel of bombing a hospital minutes after, exact number of dead, based on Hamas report! Hamas report!!!
Journalists report civilian casualty numbers in Gaza based on reports of Gaza’s ministry of health, who are Hamas! But it’s being presented as absolute truth.
Actually, I enjoy hearing Bari's opinions on many issues. I've heard her speak on this issue a few times. Like Ben Shapiro, she is too blindly Jewish to make sense. I do not respect her opinion on this issue.
Only an idiot would say that another supports rape and murder.
24,000+ Palestinians have been murdered and that's all you've got?
Palestinians murdered? In a war they started by raping, beheading and killing women, children, the elderly and, OBTW some men as well? Playing with a severed breast while filming it and calling their parents to brag about how many unarmed peace concert-goers they are butchering? Yes, that's all we've got. Just that.
So, to be clear, you unequivocally condemn the rape, torture, kidnapping and murder of Jewish men, women and children; and whatever else you think about the war, you view this as a criminal activity without any possible moral justification?
I think we both know the answer to that. You're not a person, you are a type. And honestly ChatGPT--which by the way came out against Anti-Semitism and its iterations in forms like "from the river to the sea. . "--would probably be more believable.
Prove me wrong by saying something both decent and true. I don't think you can.
If I remember correctly, it has been reported in nearly every war with Israel that the Palestinians like Hamas use women and children as shields. Yes, many of them are killed, but Hamas WANTS that so their apologists in the West will blame Israel.
Islam preaches that it WILL be the ruler of the world. And, war is the fastest was to accomplish that. If you don't believe me, read the Koran. It is what my Palestinian Muslim neighbor across the street has said several times. I was invited to a party and the other men must have thought I was Muslim because they talked about friends who were planning a terror attack, and about sending help to Hamas to buy guns and other weapons.
PS The terrorists were arrested because someone in their group reported them.
You are right. Israel created Hamas leaving Gaza and believing it would yield peace. Now they know better and will not make this mistake again. The two-state solution is no longer on the table. Since Hamas started the war, your imaginary 24,000 Palestinians are collateral damage of Hamas actions. Hamas has murdered them.
You’re right that both are untrustworthy, but what specifics can you give that anyone thinking like Susan buys into the propaganda? The news now is completely split, so which is propaganda and which isn’t? This is question I ask myself because I don’t know who to believe about this topic. I can’t get beyond what happened on October 7, and yet I know much has happened prior to that which we don’t know due to media bias. But the media sure has changed since October 7. And so if we’re not to believe the media, are we to believe the Palestinian/hamas protesters? No thanks you!
Linda, I'm starting to compile a Cliff notes version of history that had lead us to this point - publishing here for criticism so I can correct factual errors.
People have been documented living in the area some people now call Palestine, and some call Israel, including the regions known as West Bank and Gaza, for thousands of years. The modern descendants of these people usually identify ethnically as either Jew or Arab. Arabs tend to be Muslim or Christian, but also other minority groups such as Druze.. Neither Palestine not Israel is a name with continuous indigenous usage (I could be wrong about the latter). Palestine was a name used by Europeans, including the British, who ruled there from the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1917, until 1948. There was a lot of immigration to this region during this period. Before that it was thinly populated (based on accounts at https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/the-palestinian-myth-a-view-from-the-arab-perspective-fpdwbp2e).
There were sometimes violent disagreements about who could live where. A Jewish state named Israel was authorised by international fiat in 1948. Jews forcibly and violently removed some Arabs, to what must have been then parts of Jordan and Egypt. Other sources suggest these people fled their homes as a result of the then ongoing way between Jews and Arabs. Presumably that truth is a mixture of both readings for displacement. Muslim Arab nations responded by expelling Jews. The Arabs who had been removed were understandably upset and have since by turns violently and peacefully and politically attempted to return. The Jews allowed a substantial number of Arabs, of several faiths, to remain in Israel. Muslim Arab nations have warred with Israel several times, ostensibly on behalf of the removed people, who eventually came to be known (and identify) as Palestinians. Having lost territories they once held to Israel as a result, these nations would prefer to see the Palestinians as separate rather than absorbing them and the regions they occupy into their own states of Israel and Jordan.
Uniquely among all the displaced people's in history, the Palestinians have been successful in establishing international support for their right to return, and also, alternatively, their right to a two state solution, neither of which for various reasons have come to fruition.
I hope this is a reasonably accurate summary of the main facts and events.
LOL..............the first offer of a 2 state solution was in 1936.....the Pace Accord from the League of Nations. The Palestinians rejected it outright even though the land offered the Jews was a small slice of the area and the worst land available. Jerusalem's Mayor stated they would never live along side the Jews an inferior race of people. So no, your history is not close to being accurate. In 1947 the now United Nations offered a two state solution, again, the Jews were on board even though the land they were offered was a small slice of the area and not productive. Within hours of forming Israel in 1948, the Arab League nations attacked the Jews, but were repelled. So it has always been. Offers go out to the Arabs, they reject and attack.
Read a little more deeply into the time the Jews first started moving into what is now Israel in 1948. Many Arabs ran away because the thought the Jews would massacre them. But Arabs have been massacring Jews for centuries. They turned around and tried to destroy Israel almost before it was born. They are taught to hate Jews. There are schools called Madrasas where children are only taught the Koran and have for Jews and America. They do not get taught much else.
Not so, Sophia. There are many decent non-Jewish people who are 100% behind Israel right now. But (drumroll!) since you are confused about which side has the moral high ground, please answer these two questions:
1. Can you imagine Israel using Israeli women and children as human shields?
2. And if you can, do you think Hamas will be deterred or encouraged by such shields?
I have not yet found anyone thinking as you do who will answer the questions. The answers are obvious to all, and silence means you know what Hamas is, but you do not care. That makes you wicked. And if you answer 'yes' to the first, and 'encouraged' to the second, that makes you evil. Should you 'answer 'No' and 'deterred' there is hope for you.
Is this the same world that 80 years ago enabled the first Holocaust, and - along with several dozen new jihadist fundamentalist regimes - would happily endorse a second?
I have many very close Palestinian friends and many Jewish friends that are trying to tell me the true story. Do you think their stories are the same? My goodness the telling of history isn’t even the same anymore. I care deeply for humanity. I hate war, and the hatred that I see in this country is like never before in my long life. This world is a disaster right now, and I’m sure God is not pleased.
Exactly! Koran says you can enter into negotiations with infidel only in order to pretend and mislead. Btw Muslims who don’t pray 5 times daily are considered infidels and deserve death, so make a simple calculation who all of you are...
To some greatly lesser extent, I think Islam has their equivalent of functionally apostate Jews, just as there are Mormons who drink alcohol.
I think most human progress comes from the defects in systems. Nothing good can happen in a hermetically sealed, perfectly protected system. To my mind, this is the core problem with Islam: the claim made is that the system is perfect and that no improvements are possible. I think this breeds childish, angry, and violent people, at least under any form of stress. Most people are fine when they have no stress placed on them, and that was the case for most Muslim majority nations for some hundreds of years. But that has changed, and most are not adapting very well.
Absolutely. When they don’t write about Hamas sexual violence for months you know they are biased against Israel. When they accuse Israel of bombing a hospital when Islamic jihad did it!
What propaganda? Care to elaborate on what facts the American press is, in your opinion, twisting? Do you think Hamas did not rape-kill-maim all those Jews and foreign visitors? Do you believe Israel should leave Hamas alone when it promises more such pogroms agains the Jews? Spell out what our press getting wrong and turning into propaganda?
It's fine--and smart--to be a media skeptic. When the media are obligated to twist news to fit a certain audience expectation or go out business from that audience abandoning them for another provider, I must regard any news report with skepticism.
But that's a far cry from "you can't trust any of them on anything." Most general newspapers try to get the facts right on what they cover. The twisting occurs in what they choose to cover--or, not. Hunter Biden, for instance. When they finally got around to reporting his case, the facts were pretty accurate. What they failed to do was cover him at all for at least a year, and that was a political decision.
You're suggesting the Times, Post, et al, are so pro-Israel as to not report the Palestinian perspective? I'd argue the opposite: they go out of their way to slam Israel and softsoap Hamas, Hezbollah, and other Palestinian atrocities. They also twist the history of Palestine to make it appear as if Israel stole "Palestinian" land and ethnically cleansed Palis. That's not remotely the case.
The coverage is not 100 percent imbalanced, but the shots taken at Israel and not at Palis occur too often for my comfort.
I'm delighted we're on the same page, Not so young. I hate that we have to be on the same page, because that means the major media as so profoundly anti-Israel. I cancelled my subscription to WaPo for precisely that reason: its coverage of Israel and Palestinians, along with its anti-gun obsessions, was so profound and in-your-face that I felt they no longer deserve a dime from me. So I cancelled six months ago and haven't missed it a bit.
You mean the subtle kind, like the NPR journalist Peter Kenyon, on Israeli soccer player Sagiv Jehezkel wearing a wristband with a Star of David and the message 100 days, 7/10?
Starting at about 2.22 of the NPR News Now report of 01-15-2024 8AM EST:
"Oct 7th, the day Israel says Hamas militants killed some 1200 people in southern Israel, and took others hostage"
"Israel says", like this is possibly a disputed fact?
To be fair to him, it's possibly how he has to report the news, either die to NPR policy, or the fact he's reporting from inside Turkey, which seems to take a dim view of anything pro-Israel.
That is true. But events of the last few years have honed in many a distinct nose for things that simply do not add up. Like a group that screams genocide and enflames emotion by doing so when its population has doubled since 2005. There are other examples and this issue is not the only one where the narrative, whatever drives it, is faulty.
I just saw journalist asking a normal looking, well to do woman waking with a normal looking guy - could be my neighbors - why she ripped down posters of Israeli hostages and she replied very calmly and politely “because it’s proven a fake”
Terrorists are freedom fighters.
Tunnels with weapons to kill civilians is freedom fighting.
Gorgeous, developed land on Mediterranean shore received to prosper on is called occupied by Israel.
But why be surprised?
We have men who can give birth and breastfeed.
Women are birthing individuals.
Fathers are arrested protesting daughters being rapped in girls spaces by men pretending to be women. And repeat!
Drag queens in full night club getup reading to babies in libraries.
President of United States allowing drug addicted, degenerate son to represent him in business dealings with foreign entities and calling it FATHERLY LOVE!
Let us be perfectly clear here, Israel's actions against Hamas are NOT the reason for rising antisemitism. That demon resides in the hearts of those expressing it and has ALWAYS resided there! All that is needed is a spark, or in this case a war, to fan those flames in the hearts of those who need to be utterly humiliated and defeated. Hamas feeds into this by operating in civilian areas. The unfortunate, and inescapable, case is that Palestinians will die. It is not Israel's fault alone, but is primarily the fault of Hamas, Iran, and everyone in the world who support them, even those in the USA!
It feels to me that what has LEAD TO an unprecedented attack on Israel, in part, is the general decay we are seeing around the globe, but particularly with Israel's traditional allies. There is chaos everywhere... So much chaos, that no one is paying attention to the morals/values and unity of their countries....
America was historically one of Israel's staunchest supporters and backers... but the language around that is much more iffy now.
You cannot take America (or Israel) down using guns. No way. but you CAN take America, and therefore her allies like Israel, down from within. The Left, and their henchmen like Fauci, are the enemy within.
Their tactic of taking focus off of guarding American ideals are extremely effective. This is a whole new kind of warfare. They create CONSTANT chaos that keeps us unfocused, on edge and fighting, and not paying attention to how they are dismantling the American way.... and hence, protection for our allies as well... The many, many examples of this chaos:
-Deliberately doing unconstitutional things just for the sake of the legal battle.
-BLM
-Defund the police
-Aggressively Promoting black victimhood
-CRT in our universities and at large... encouraging open hostility towards whites
-LGBTQ and attack of children by trans ideology and pedophiles
-America being the biggest market for human trafficking
-Trans against women sports and in safe places for women (bathrooms, etc)
-Saying that Trans "women" men are better women than biological women
-Illegal immigrants and unsafe borders, allowing in terrorists and spies
-Anti-semitism
-Support of Hamas terrorists
-Anti-colonialism - like as if any of it can be undone... practically every tribe, every peoples, every country has done colonialism during the course of their history
-DEI in our universities, especially the ones training our future leaders
-DEI hires, like in the airline industry
-Out of control inflation
-Covid - all of it! Lockdowns, "social distancing", face masks
-Dakota Access pipeline
-Media censorship
-Media manipulation of facts or printing only partial truths.
-Legalizing marijauan (skunk smell everywhere and addicts have taken over our cities)
Abortion issues which have been galvanizing the country for years...
-In many blue states like CA, making it illegal to investigate infant deaths up to 28 days AFTER birth, Late term abortions of fully viable babies
-Federal funding of abortions which was disallowed before
-Planned Parenthood openly admitting to extracting tissues and organs from still-alive fetuses (and specifically targeting teenage mothers for these).
There are so many things for Americans to be angry about now. Our focus is in a hundred different places... and it is no longer on the real enemy, like terrorists, it's on trying to calm fears about racism which was no longer a major issue in America. How effective the enemy within has been.
I would add vaccine injury to the list. Citizens were terrorized for years by “news” organizations like CNN with its screen rolling death count. Get vaccinated! Get vaccinated! Now, when 20 year olds keel over and die, and alarming “excess death” and disability data is reported, no questions are allowed. Before a barista could ask your vaccine status. There is a profound feeling of being gaslighted.
Robert, absolutely! This situation has only given already anti-Jewish thoughts a place to come out. It is allowing prejudices a voice, a way for people to say the quiet part out-loud now.
Thanks for the links. Another set of very useful confirmations of what I've learnt since first reading Crone and Cook's 'Hagarism' forty years ago. You hope to hear it mainstream someday but folk prefer delusion to truth.
Thanks for the info. I always thought in 1948, those 750,000 Arabs were told by egyptians, Syrians and Jordanians to leave Israel because the Arabs were going to be attacking and they should get out of harms way and then they could return. Whoops, they believed the Arabs and fled. When the Israelis won, they became homeless but no other Arab country wanted them. IOW they backed the wrong horse. I also thought that those Arabs that remained are now fully integrated into Israeli society as citizens of Israel.
Thanks for setting me straight there Sophia. Otherwise I’d believe actual historical fact.
And Israel laments its decision to support Hams as a tactic to weaken Arafat's power base in the West Bank. But "occupiers"? Jews have "occupied" Palestine for a few thousand years.
One thing we’ve learned from 10/7 and the pro-Hamas reaction, is that the distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism is mostly sophistry. So own your prejudice and hatred, at least be honest with yourself. You’re not fooling anybody else.
Sophia, allow me to educate you. In the year AD 689 on Mount Moriah work began on what we now call the Dome of the Rock. It occupied the very spot where Jewish Temple and its Holy of Holiest (where Ark once stood) location in Jerusalem.
Muhammad followers were expressing their authority over Jews by doing this. But it went farther than that. Running along both sides of Dome of Rock arcade were verses disparaging the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, stating that Jesus was only a messenger of God. This was done to both reopen Christian theological debate settled centuries prior that Jesus was God himself in flesh (Son of God) but also to condemn the entire New Testament/Gospels. You know what other versus were carved into Dome of the Rock? They were series of revelations that Muhammad followers said had been given to him (Muhammad) directly by the angel, Gabriel. These versus later became the Qur’an. By claiming (like Moses) that the Qur’an text was literally from the very mouth of God, it expressed superiority over the New Testament (which was written by mortal men). This is why the Qur’an mentions Moses over 130 times. Moses’ and ancient Israel’s exodus from Pharaoh/Egypt was hijacked to justify/give fuel to Arab/Saracens own conquests over Judea, then subsequently across Africa and up into south modern day France. Arabs at time referred to themselves as ‘muhajirun’ or ‘those that have undertaken an exodus’. By AD 792 Arab Seracens ‘exodus’ had made almost all the way to shrine of Saint Martin at Tours (the holiest Christian site at time) Thankfully at Poiters the Franks prevailed in battle vs. the muhajirun and this marked the beginning of end of that Caliphate:
History is available to you, if you’d like to seek it. This battle goes back at least 1,335 years to time when Dome of the Rock was built over Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. Muslims at this time made it known that both Jews and Christians were, inferior, then took up the Sword to press in that point. And the band has played on ever since.
You ARE a Jew hater. It's ok to say that. There are many proud Jew haters around these days. Why deny it? Join with Claudine Gay and Liz Magill and all the others. These are proud academic women!
Is the best plan for you like the protesters we see disrupting life daily in this country…to push the Jews out of Israel by killing them? I’ve heard this from the mouths of protesters. Truly disgusting.
Only Haviv Rettig Gur touched on, what I feel, is the biggest disconnect, and that is that this isn't a war between Israel and the 'Palestinians', but against Radical Islam as being managed, funded and promoted by Iran. No solution can be found in peace talks between the Palestinians and Israel, as Iran, who controls the out come, which in their mind, requires the death of Jews and elimination of Israel.
The Palestinians are just a group of people who have never been accepted by most of the Arabs in the ME, and are still not welcome in any of the nations surrounding Israel. They've been a pawn in the larger war between the ME, and now Persia against the state of Israel.
Until we frame this conflict for what it is, a religious war, and who controls the entity that is currently orchestrating it, Iran, this conflict can't end.
That brings up a problem closer to home. Barak Obama has been behind the US support for building a stronger Iran as he believes Israel has too much power in the ME. This is a hugely flawed strategy, and Trump not only stopped it, but between the Abraham Accords, the moving of the embassy and other things, reinforced our commitment to Israel while strengthening their relationships to the ME. Once Joe Biden was elected it became clear that Obama was still highly influential in the Biden Administration as we again embarked on supporting Iran by reinstituting many flawed Obama policies.
Until we drop the façade that this is an Israel-Palestinian conflict, and acknowledge that this is Iran versus Israel, and all of the West, this conflict will never be resolved. You can't find a political solution to a religious war.
But then, you know, if you look at Persia's entire history, they've always been a loser. kriste, even the gay Greeks beat them, twice, not to mention the kid-Macedonian. And like with India and others, Great Britain had to show them how to build railroads -- kriste, for all I know, had to show them a wheel.
Actually, Persia had a long period of pre-eminence and flourishing. It is a great source of pride for Iranians, who think little of their current klepto-theocratic government.
Come, now. Only in some social strata, in some places. I do not disapprove of the practice, but your characterization of an ancient civilization in this way seems a bit off in tone.
Except for the 900 years they were either THE world power or one of three before Islam. After Islam they were a Great Power again for centuries and only really eclipsed after c.1800. Iranian civilisation vies with that of the Han, and ONLY the Han for longevity.
Geez, I'll have to revisit how the Khan overran and ruled not only them but most of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, 1200 to 1400. I could be wrong. Nevertheless, it still took Britain to teach them to build a railroad. By the way, the Han ruled nothing outside the wall, their choice.
They get knocked down; they get up and their enemies wind up looking distinctly Persian. Given half a chance they make a comeback. Did I say anything other than that? No.
I will simply say that America didn't worry too much about civilian deaths in World War 2. We just didn't talk about them. Think of that scene in Saving Private Ryan where the father, in an apartment whose entire side has been blown off by artillery fire, tries to give his kid to Vin Diesel. France was filled with ruins like that. So too, presumably, were Belgium and Holland and obviously Germany. And we blew up outright Hiroshima and Nagasaki, after killing even more people in fire bombing attacks that preceded them.
Israel has to try and control the land of an enemy which uses every square inch, PARTICULARLY civilian areas which would otherwise be exempt from attack. They have to control the whole, in order to fully eliminate the tunnels which are used for everything from torture and rape rooms to weapons manufacture and storage.
And as I have been saying nearly from the outset, when Gaza is rebuilt with international money--we all know this is the future--the architects of this disaster will make billions. It would be an interesting move for Israel somehow to make land title transfers a condition for a cease fire. I would have to look at the details to make specific plans, but that a good lawyer and someone who understands development could do some interesting and disruptive things seems likely. Maybe they reserve one square foot per block and sell it dearly.
But I have been saying since the Obama years that the fact that the American people were capable of supporting someone about whom they knew so little was the largest problem our nation faced, not Obama himself. That the propaganda has been so effective is obviously correlated with an overall diminishment both of general knowledge, and the ability to perform basic reasoning, of which moral reasoning is one component.
There will never be peace in the Middle East as long as there are useful idiots in the West.
Great comments, UF. I love your idea of transferring title to Palestinian citizens. They would have much more stake in peace and development. Right now they are just wards of the UN.
That wasn't what I intended, but I actually support that. My intent was to prevent the Qatari billionaires who seemingly created and funded this war from profiting from it.
But the most equitable means of doing that might be to entrust the land and following improvements (new high rises paid for by the EU, OPEC nations and the US) to ordinary people, perhaps as a form of shared stock.
And I will emphasize I don't really know what I'm talking about. I am speculating. But I'm usually pretty close to the mark. I can't otherwise fathom how any of this would have been rational for anyone anywhere, unless arms merchants were behind it, which is probably a little less cynical than using your own people as cannon fodder to make money you don't need.
I've no idea where the arms merchants were when first Mo rocked up in Palestine 1400-odd years ago, but killing Jews has been a Muslim thing from the beginnining. Arms dealers or no; a Muslim's first order of business is "Kill the Jew".
It has been my experience, as I get older and read more history, that what I THOUGHT was the story was not necessarily the story. Historically, there have been many times and places where the Muslims rulers were less barbaric than their Christian counterparts, or so it has long seemed to me. Certainly the Jews in Spain were safe under the Moors and were cast out by the Christians.
The gist is that Jews had been banned from entering Jerusalem off and on for 500 years or so. When a Muslim Army was marching to conquer, or at least occupy, Jerusalem, many Jews joined them. Once the conquest was complete, they massacred Christians, with numbers ranging from 5,000 up to 60,000.
But the sides kept shifting and everybody kept engaging in mass murder, over and over, in the City of Peace.
I will say that I have Robert Spencer's "Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam" on my shelf, and have read many of his columns, if not that book, and am certainly broadly aware of the history and theology. But I will always believe that times and people change, sometimes even while seeming to say the same words.
Is it stupid for Europe to import and then tolerate large numbers of people who hate them? Of course. Of course. But that doesn't make Islam the enemy. The real enemy is almost always stupidity, here exemplified by failing to realize that a liberal democracy cannot survive if illiberal authoritarians become the majority.
Please. It is incumbent on the Jews to win their war, which they have refused to do. They refused since 2006 to do what was necessary. Ike didn’t delay D-Day 17 years, until the Germans were better prepared!
Instead the Israelis thought they could hide in their holes and ignore the rockets like some bad freezing rain.
If Israel can’t win a war because they’re worried what western liberals think, they’re even more pathetic than previously imagined!
So, to the chorus of voices saying "the Jews" are overreacting you want to add your own criticism that they are not doing enough? Amazing.
I'm on the internet too much every day, and even I am sometimes surprised at the forms of ideational life out there, species whose existence I had not suspected.
Puh-Leaze. We’ve been watching the Jews accept missiles being shot at their homes for decades now, and always respond by taking a few pot-shots while hiding in their holes until the storm passes. Until the next season starts. While of course taking more of the West Bank the whole time.
What a sad state. Glad we had Lincoln and not a bi-bi.
I'm curious: have you ever been shot at, or heard shots fired in anger? Your tone is that of someone who watches TV and lurks on the internet 16-20 hours a day, when you are not a sulky clerk in a convenience store somewhere.
You've got a pizza belly, a microwave you use several times a day to cook something out of a box, watch way too much porn, and have a large collection of war related books and movies.
How'd I do?
I might add that Bibi was a member of Sayeret Mat'Kal--General Staff Reconnaisance--the structure of which was a likely inspiration for our own creation of JSOC. He saw extensive combat, and his brother led and was killed at the Raid on Entebbe.
Lincoln never fought a day in his life. He almost had to fight a duel and thereafter learned not to insult people. Personally, I am far from convinced the Civil War was a good idea, even if obviously freeing the slaves was.
I don't know why I wrote that, but I'm going to post it. It may be useful to someone.
Microwaving food while watching porn…is that the pastime of Israelis hiding in their holes?
lol as a veteran all I can do is laugh. Go hide in your hole. Maybe set a table for Anne Frank, since she wasn’t able to hide in a hole in her ancestors land, but had to hide in Europe instead.
Lincoln didn’t stop until Unconditional Surrender was accepted. Israel will quit long before then.
The Turks were able to rule splendidly until the Brits and French forced them out a century ago and invented the modern ME nation state. Since then, the best ME states have all been absolute dictatorships, bar none. (Except Israel, but they were founded by westerners, weren’t they?)
It really should be a much simpler solution than what the USA accomplished in the 20th Century. Of which modern Israel is likely a footnote. Maybe a chapter.
They attacked the British and Russian Empires first; they chose to get their heads kicked in. We'd rather not have had to do it, and sticking around afterwards was a mistake, but they kicked it off and duly got a kicking.
"If anti-wokeness results in an inability to acknowledge profound power imbalances and the suffering of the truly marginalized, then I’m not sure it’s a movement that makes sense for those of us who cannot reconcile ourselves to the violations Palestinians must endure daily."
And why is this the case? Whose fault is it that these poor oppressed Palestinians must suffer such daily indignations?
Perhaps because they have repeatedly rejected offers for their own state, living in peace next to Israel? In 1937, 1947, 1967, 1990s, 2000, 2008, 2020? Perhaps because they have 100 years of intransigence, absolute commitment to violence and jihad, refusal to compromise or to accept legitimate Jewish indigenous claims to the land, and adherence to a Moloch death cult in which they raise their children to become martyrs while killing Jews? Perhaps because 'two states living side by side in peace and security' is not actually what they really want?
And progressive Western useful idiots only enable this "from the river to the sea" ultimate goal with their bigotry of low expectations, in which Palestinians have no agency and no responsibility for the choices they have made.
Yes yes yes. Exactly. I was once a naive liberal useful idiot westerner with sympathies for the Palestinians, for socialism, and other Good Liberal Causes. My sympathy for the Palestinians ended decades ago under the weight of however many blown up pizza cafes, burnt buses, stabbed women, etc, etc. Those people appear to have not one useful contribution to make to world civilization - terrorism is it. To hell with them.
Especially grating is their endless play of the Victim Card. The annoying WaPo person above phrased it as being on the receiving end of history - it’s always passive, never based on their own decisions. The fact is they overplayed their hand in and up to 1948, lost, and then instead of adapting and finding another play doubled down - to keep losing over and over. They still are under the delusion that everything since 1948 can be erased (including/especially all those nasty Jews), that history can be reversed and finally they will be victorious. Again, to hell with them.
Most people I know aren't "anti-woke" because of their inability to acknowledge power imbalances or injustice. The awareness is there - its the mind-numbing RESPONSES to it that we reject.
I fear that support for Israel from the West will crater. More and more, if seems like pro-Palestine/anti-Israel sentiment is winning. I keep seeing headlines and reports from news media that give me an impression people 35 and younger are basically on the side against Israel. How much longer will the Biden administration hold on to its commitment to support Israel when its staff and the federal government staff keeps demanding they withdraw support? And even if Israel wins this war, what happens 10 years from now? Or 20? What happens when these younger generations take over and they overwhelmingly think Israel should not exist? Will Israel find itself all alone in the world in 30, 40 years' time?
I can't believe there are still so many Americans who still deny the brutal rapes and murders of women in Israel by Hamas didn't happen.
If it’s any consolation, I’m a GenX mom raising my GenZ child right. She can see and understands why Hamas is wrong. She is thoughtful and asks questions. There’s hopefully more like her out there then we think.
It doesn't help that our country has an immigration policy that imports large numbers of unrepentant anti-Semites. Sadly, Jewish Democrat politicians share some of the blame for this.
Those politicians are democrats first and Jews second or last. Remember they couldn’t even condemn Omar or Tlaib for their virulent anti Semitism. It had to be watered down to just general hate of anybody or anything to get their votes.
Illegal immigration is certainly a very big part of the immigration equation. But the other side of the immigration equation is the change in legal immigration starting in the 1960's which shifted to focus more on immigration from the Third World as opposed to immigration from Europe which was more prevalent in previous decades. Hence the large number of Palestinian immigrants/Palestinian Americans who form the backbone of the current anti-Israel protests.
"What happens when these younger generations take over and they overwhelmingly think Israel should not exist? Will Israel find itself all alone in the world in 30, 40 years' time?"
In MUCH less time than that! 10 years, I'd say, at the maximum!
As the saying goes…elections have consequences, and 2020 election has show that to be true in so many areas. If Americans vote him in again, I will have lost faith that this country can turn around and move to a better place.
I’ll start with control of the open border which has let the most illegals ever into our country on Biden’s watch. And yet the admin continues to lie by blaming the former administration. They can’t even call it what it is…a crisis! But democrats don’t find this to be a top problem, so we could continue to let in unvetted illegals by the millions if Biden is elected. Unfortunately, Trump is closest to him in the polls than the rest of the candidates. If only…
You’re welcome! But I’ll try again because you missed the easy point I made. The better place is a country with borders because that’s actually part of the definition of a country. The only way that happens is if a republican wins because it’s obviously not ever going to happen under Biden. But then, you knew that. You just prefer our borders be a free for all like it currently is.
Oops. I just read the operant phrase the third time and got it right. You said "move the country to a better place." I read "move (yourself) to a better place." Your conclusion in your last sentence nonetheless blows (what's left of) my mind. I'll just say that the non-border is only one, though arguably the most immediate, problem.
We have a difficult situation that you nailed on the head. Schools having been telling children that Palestine is in the right and Israel is evil. Did you see that school map on X the other day that didn't even list Israel as a nation? Our children are being educated by leftist activists that are lying to them. Over and over. That is where the support is. If you go and talk to these supporters, at least the young white ones, they have NO CLUE what is going on. Seriously. Its shocking. My family is Israeli. My BIL has moved his family back and forth between Silicon Valley CA and Tel Aviv over the last few years, and when they were in CA his oldest was even spewing those lies. We were all shocked, and when asked where he learned what he was saying about Palestine, it was "my teacher told me." And this was from an 8 year old who was born in Israel and had lived there for years before moving to the USA.
One thing no one is talking about, not even Bari: the education and employment pipeline to teaching jobs. We're at a breaking point and it's clear that the low salary combined with low reward and prestige, is resulting in teaching jobs being taken up by young people who are leftovers from the hiring pools every other industry has rejected. We're leaving kids to be taught by radical ideologues, neurodivergents, and God only knows who else. Until someone starts paying attention to this and we start to fix this, I don't see any hope. All I'm seeing are people with options escaping to home school and private schools.
Teaching used to be a respectable job, if not well-paid. With opportunities abundant now for women, teaching is no longer the only few selected options. The best and brightest women have all abandoned teaching for something else. The gradual deterioration over the decades have finally brought us to the inevitable result.
If people care about their kids, there needs to be a national discussion on how the pipeline for teaching professions must be reviewed and overhauled. It can't be left as the negligible job as it was in the 1950s and 60s, something nice to do for young women from whom society expects little. We need to get young men and women who are much more competent into the profession, pay them better to recruit more quality job applicants, give them better career paths, and revamp the system.
Of course I'm just a nobody shouting into the wind. So things will just plug along and continue to rot.
I'm not speaking from any personal expertise here, but generally I don't think teachers are the problem. Most are good people who care about their students. But they are taught in school, and in turn are required to teach, certain things in certain ways, and the result of that teaching is destructive to our country and our culture. The education profession -- Department of Education, education schools in universities, text publishers, curricula designers, boards of education, everything from top to bottom -- must be ripped out by the roots and reconstructed to teach truth and educate in logic. Howard Zinn, the 1619 project, DEI, critical theory of all sorts, the whole Marxist-inspired, America-hating heart of our education system must go.
While there are good people who are teachers, if you go in TikTok you'll find no shortage of the teachers with blue hair and nose rings broadcasting all the stuff you're talking about entirely on their own without the directions of the school authorities or systems. Be careful not to misgender them btw.
Folk seem to forget or not know that Isael can reach out and touch us. That Mossad has, can, and will, kill anywhere and anytime, with inpunity, that Israel feels it has to. That 'Jericho III' certainly can bring "Instant Sunshine" to New York; Washington; London; or Paris should the need warrant. I wouldn't blink if they felt they had to "glass" Manchester 8 miles down the road from me. Folk ought to remember that if you sow the wind it is down to you if you reap the whirlwind.
The seeds of the massacre were planted by those who tried to be peacemakers in this region:
The land for peace that had Israel pull out of Gaza.
Those who thought that Democracy could change the world led to the election of Hamas.
Those who decried the blockade of Gaza as if they were a normal country looking for peace.
I have yet to see an article in the mainstream press about how Hamas was funded and how they would instead build tunnels, buy rockets, and create terrorists. Are the civilians in Gaza complicit in this? I say yes. And throughout history, sadly, those who buy into or support evil have to pay the consequences.
Every person who supports Israel should say this War ends when Hamas surrenders unconditionally. There is no two-state solution. There is no peace partner. There is only total victory, and then, and only then, can Gaza be rebuilt from the ashes. How that gets done is a story for another day, but I am in complete support of destroying Hamas by any means necessary.
Sadly my tax dollars have undoubtedly helped build tunnels and rockets in Gaza. There is Israeli blood on the hands of every American, every European, etc. And our idiot leaders and "diplomats" are hoping to rinse and repeat.
I find the attachment to Shadi Hamid as a moderate voice and Andrew Sullivan as a keen observer of anything peculiar. Hamid offers a deflection from the reality of the dangers of Islamism and the role of Iran that are drivers of global anti semitism and regional instability in the Middle East. While I respect Sullivan as a thinker, he unfortunately was responsible for promoting much of the Trump authoritarian narrative that distracted many observers from the primary threat of virulent leftism that needs to be combatted more forcefully. They have nothing to offer our threatened West in this moment.
Sadly it’s hard for commentators and “gurus “ to get above their old obsessions. We are in the midst of an acute crisis in the West and these folks have no solutions. I understand the need for viewpoint diversity. But these folks never look back and admit they were wrong.
His unhinged attacks on Sarah Palin's pregnancies as opposed to her politics was the reason why I'm forever skeptical of what he writes. So he gets a few things right now and then. Broken clock ringing twice and all. But he's shown he can go off the deep end.
I’m off Twitter now. Its actually astonishing how the real genocides in Syria and North Africa, the coordinated attacks on the US and Israelby Iran’s proxies, and continuous rampaging in US are never connected by these folks to the Gaza situation. It’s frightening to see see this cognitive breakdown unfold.
Personally I like a breadth of opinions, and I was interested in their perspective. To their discredit, however, the two writers you mentioned did not make a compelling case for their point of view.
Sadly almost all the alternative opinions we here from are those of complete dick-heads and worse. There was some remark that readers had asked for this. I've seen no readers who have asked for anything like the crap they've put up here. This is said everytime - and everytime the commentariat bar 666 responds with brickbats in unison.
Once and for all we are not interested in progressive, liberal, woke, or any other crypto-communist and anti-semitic garbage. TFP needs to cut it the fuck out. We are not interested and we do not want to know; bar a list of those to put against a wall.
Shadi Hamid and Andrew Sullivan live in “lala land”. Some people will be confused forever. Israel is in an existential war for survival of a country and all Jews everywhere. Many read “Mein Kampf” and didn’t believe it till they were murdered. Believe “from river to the sea”!
Tomorrow Joe bidens federal employees will have a walkout for Hamas. OK they won’t say that explicitly but it’s to protest the help for Israel. Same thing
You think any will be fired? Dream on. That only happens if you’re a conservative
I don't think he "woke up" to that. It has always been there. It always is with these people. They learn to say the right things at cocktail parties and in the office - but get 'em drunk and they will go off about the heebs and kikes - and how this one money-lender "jewed" him down on Craigslist...
The Silence of the Feminists: This myopia/selective outrage/cognitive dissonance (call it what you will) about the women victims of Hamas is the latest instance of something huge and longstanding: "Early March 2020 saw the publication of a remarkable book on a shamefully neglected subject: the brutality visited on literally millions of civilian women in war zones....... to read her harrowing account of sexual atrocities - in Burma, Syria, Iraq, Nigeria, Ruanda, Bosnia, Bangladesh and elsewhere - is to be brought hard up against a recognition of the huge disconnect that can exist between the gravity of events unfolding around the world and the amount of attention they receive.... some of the atrocities Lamb describes were ongoing in 2017 when Western media attention was suddenly so mesmerised by casting-couch exploitation in the film industry that it seemingly left no emotional capital for anything else." https://grahamcunningham.substack.com/p/life-in-the-shadows-of-metoo
“ The same actions committed by Russia and Israel—the same propaganda, the same gory videos—are judged differently simply because Israel is one of us and Russia is one of them.”
Hey Bruno, Ukraine didn’t invade and attack Russia as Hamas did Israel. Fundamental difference you seem to have forgotten.
I thought the same thing...I kept wondering how he was making that connection. Maybe he is saying that Israel took their land from the Palestinians like Russia is trying to do with Ukraine? Still not the same, but I can't see a connection otherwise.
I was not interested in either Russia/Ukaine or Israel/Palestine wars. Let 'em get on with it; leave me out and leave our arms and money out. Then I ran into Hamas supporting scum on the same Saturday/Sunday and got learned pdq.
This IS my fight; it is ALL ours' fight.
Russia is 140 million and falling who couldn't fight their way out of a paperbag; the Ummah is 2 billion and rocketing. They can't fight their way out of a paper bag either; but they are dripping in dosh; they invented and have honed over 60 years international terrorism; they honed the suicide bomber; and have been a world-hating death cult for 1400 years.
I'm not interested in fighting them or seeing them dead per se; but they sure as hell are interested in killing me; my family; my friends and anyone else who is Harbi.
I think the Jews in America and the Israelis are letting the narrative be all about “the poor victim Palestinians”. The useful idiots supporting The Poor Palestinian Victims could use a history lesson. As I type this I know how hard it would be to change their minds. But here’s a thought---
What would the world be like if all the Jews had been exterminated by Hitler in the 1930s? What inventions, medical miracles, scientific discoveries would not have happened? Things that have benefited humankind in innumerable ways would not have been created.
Now ask the same question about Palestinians, or for that matter, Muslims in the ME in general.
The problem with the “oppressor/oppressed dialectic” is that the so called oppressors are also the achievers. We need them.
Been asking that question about Jewish acheivement for as long as I've been aware of "antisemitism." This just in: You can throw in a good-faith estimate of how many Einsteins the National Socialists murdered. They won't listen.
A brief comment on Bari’s expose of the “feminists” who have nothing to say about Hamas’s savagery against women and girls:
Their conspicuous silence is because prominent “feminists” are leftist ideologues before they are supporters of female achievement. They hate the Israeli “colonizers” and “oppressors” of Palestinians, therefore they will not call out Hamas for its atrocities.
True feminists would take the side of Riley Gaines against Lia Thomas. They would stand up for the brilliant, uniquely successful female author, J.K. Rowling. They would celebrate the achievements of high-ranking women politicians like Joni Ernst, Kim Reynolds, Elise Stefanik, Marsha Blackburn; but no, those are Republicans, so can’t be acknowledged. Ruth Ginsburg gets vastly more recognition from feminists than does the first female Justice, Sandra Day O’Connor - who was, oops, a Republican. True feminists would embrace motherhood as perhaps the most important role a woman who wants children can fulfill; but modern “feminists” disparage motherhood.
Conservatives have known for a long time that feminist organizations like NOW, NARAL, and even UN Women are really ideological hotbeds of leftism. The primacy of Hamas in Palestine is a leftist cause. Get real: There was no chance that prominent “feminists” would criticize Hamas; any more than they are outspoken about the Taliban’s subjugation of women and girls in Afghanistan, which would obliquely criticize Joe Biden. (Oh, and what about Senator Biden’s alleged molestation of Tara Reade in a Senate office building? Never mind. That went quickly under the rug.)
Anyway … good on Bari for highlighting this issue. “Feminism” is moribund except when promoting a leftist cause.
On your point, let me add the feminists in Hollywood who did not stand up to Weinstein. For example, I do not believe that people like Meryl Streep did not know what was going on.
And Whoopie Goldberg who even claimed Polanski sexually assaulting a 13yo was not "rape" rape. Literally she was saying the same thing Todd Akin said, like there's "legitimate rape". The left let her off the hook ofc. Meanwhile, he was talking in the theoretical. She was talking about an actual case of rape.
I'm not Jewish and I live in a postcard kind of town. What hit me on October 7 like a sharp blow to the stomach was how fine the line was between barbarism and the civilization we take for granted. Thousands of men, celebrated by millions, could maniacally behead, burn alive, dismember, put babies in ovens, rip babies from the womb, throw a grenade in a father's lap, chop off hands and feet so that young women could not fight back against rape, or rape a corpse in the bed of a pick up truck, parade mutilated bodies and terrified hostages through the streets - not once, but 1200 times. That's a bone-chilling threat to civilization itself. It was justified or celebrated by far too many college students and "progressives." Taking out the evil isn't optional- living next to Hamas is akin to living next door to Hannibal Lecter, sans the mask, after he's already killed and eaten half your family. But he has a "right" to be there, say some- and roam free, and do it again. For Israel, it's 40,000-60,000 Hannibal Lecters. Nobody sane would agree to that. The vile Hamas uses babies as shields. The men certainly seem to be protecting themselves.
Let us say it openly, the men of Hamas who use women and children as shields are not men. They are cowards, willing to sacrifice the helpless so that they may survive a little longer.
Let’s put those Hamas “creatures” aside. What’s up with our most powerful women who were advocating and still are for any female victims BUT NOT JEWISH WOMEN? And the world is still praising and give platform to Michelle Obama and Oprah and others, who turned out to be total hypocrites?! Obama was just interviewed and whined endlessly how she as a black woman is not treated fairly? But journalist never asked her opinion about unfair treatment of Israeli women and girls. Privileged and disgusting!!!
To be fair, I have never seen any main stream journalists ask the Obama’s any hard questions or challenge them on their opinions, (I could be wrong but I haven’t seen it) not just this issue. Occasionally I have seen Oprah made to squirm. To me the MSM has always seemed to fawn over them & run cover for them when anything unpleasant happened.
Exactly!!! God forbid! They are untouchable but still screaming “racism”!
Remember South Africa girls school controversy? Did Oprah had to answer to any of those horrendous accusations? I don’t think so! It’s like black-on-black crime which has huge statistics but “shyly” kept hidden by all. Upside down world we live in...
What do you expect from the M(ega)S(ocialist)M(edia)?
Very true. I saw an interview a few years ago with m. Obama where she said she was concerned if her daughters went out they might be shot by a cop. First, most likely, a secret service agent would take the bullet but her bigger concern should be them being shot by a black man.
When is Bari going to stop being a Democrat?
NOW is nothing but a female propaganda group for the Dem/Commie Party. Years ago they were silent when Bill Clinton was raping Juanita Broderick and of molesting women.
At the same time Clinton was being Clinton, NOW was screaming for the resignation of Bob Packwood a Rep senator from Oregon for groping women but silent on Clinton's far more egregious acts.
Is it no wonder the left disgusts me?
Bari isn’t yet brave enough to renounce being a Democrat, takes time to unwind from such thick propaganda. It’s unfortunate that it took Oct 7 to illuminate for her the rank hypocrisy at play. The West’ ‘left’ reaction of Hamas support was no surprise at all to those of us watching the oppressor vs. victim dichotomy that’s captured much of our youth. They have been taught to see oppressors everywhere. You see it’s not antisemitism at all. It’s instead just fighting back against that oppressor, Israel. And when you do that, all actions by those opposing the oppressor are excused and tolerated.
Well, I am not too sure about that. I think it mainly antisemitism.
I was being tongue & cheek. It’s of course antisemitism but excused because Israel is cast as the bully/oppressor.
"Mainly"? That is giving the fucks way to much oxygen. :-)
Support HAMAS. Vote Democrat. The left no only hates Israel but they hate the U.S.
Every election cycle the Dem/Commies yell about white supremist groups, disgusting organizations, but when was the last time you saw marches of tens of thousand white hate groups fill the streets of London, New York and large groups on university campuses screaming for the blood of Jews?
You will never see it because the main stream left far out numbers white hate groups. The main stream left are call Democrats. So once again I say, "Support Hamas. Vote Democrat."
My guess is that feminists in the West are as appalled as you by the atrocities committed against Jewish women on Oct. 7. After all, most of the leaders of Second Wave American Feminism, from Steinem on down, were Jews! But Israel has now killed twenty times as many Palestinian women as Hamas killed Jewish ones. So attention must be paid by feminists to that as well. And don't forget how much American Second Wave feminism, led by Jews, has always attached itself closely to "Peace Studies" and antagonism to war. in general, because of the devastating effects of war on women and children. This is a very morally complex situation. I suspect that Jews who want to take satisfaction in the slaughter of 24,000 Palestinians because such Jews want to see all of Gaza as "Amalek" simply have a much more simplistic moral calculus in this horrible situation, starting with the horrors of Oct. 7, than most feminists, Jews and Gentiles alike, are likely to have.
Nice thought, but even on the sickening, bargain day, the “feminists” were silent. Second wave feminists have been replaced by the later “intersectionality delusionists.” Witness “the squad”, etc. They have proven themselves to be horrifically anti-Jew, anti-Christian.
That is the classical definition of moral relativism. Fred, you are too White to sell this Hamas propaganda. It does not look good on you. Israel does not kill women and children intentionally, and that is the key difference for anybody who is not soaked in racial identity politics.
What’s this “white” stuff? As you know, Jews and Arabs are just two different tribes of the same colored Semites. Arabs are every bit as Semitic as Jews, and vice versa. No surprise historically that both groups are as filled with hatred of the other tribe as different tribes of the same Semites have always been. It’s a defining characteristic of all Semites to be radically tribal and to especially hate members of other Semitic tribes. That’s what Semites do, whether they are Hamas, or Likudniks salivating over the prospect of wiping out the Amalek tribe called Gazans: men, women, children, and animals. As Kurtz says in Heart: “Exterminate all the brutes.”
Semites is a reference to the linguistic group, not a color. White is apparently your name, and your superior frame of reference is not restrained by a lack of subject-matter knowledge.
That’s what Semites do, eh? Oh yes, all that brotherly love that Europeans have shown each other over the centuries. how many wars? How many millions killed butchered? Wow Europeans make the Semites look like pikers in terms of murdering each other. But you go with your bigotry I guess I’ll go with mine.
In full knowledge that the following is oversimplified , I believe it applies to your position.
Agreed, violence is terrible.
Maybe not agreed, opposition to the determidly violent requires force and often violence.
Therefore, since effective opposition to a violent Hamas has resulted in terrible situations, Hamas must be tolerated.
Needless to say, I think that choice is falsely compassionate.
Yes, just as sanctions killed a million children in Saddam's Iraq. Not. You are listening to Lord Haw Haw in the Blitz, pal. Sorry, I'd shoot you on sight.
Wait. Aren't you English? What are you going to shoot anyone with? You're not allowed as much as a pointy object in genuflecting kowtowing king worshipping butlerlandia.
How many of them are pro-providing Ukraine w/cluster bombs? Are they really so anti-war??
True. But those women are complicit IMO. As are the children even though I accept the standard of Western law that children below the age of majority are incapable of making legal decisions.
Excepte, according to Progressives, the right to be be administered hormones or have their penises or breasts removed.
Very, very true.
They are not men; nor are they beasts. They are the children of Iblis.
U
Israel does not understand it. Bari does not understand it. Michael Oren does not understand it. Shadi Hamid does not understand it. Einat Wilf does not understand it. Bruno Macaes does not understand it. Haviv Gur does not fully understand it. Andrew Sullivan does not understand it.
In the muslim world, the problem, as El-Sisi said, "The problem is islam." The word means "submission" not peace. The theology is warfare, blessing slaughter of any who refuse to convert, slaughter of captives for resisting attack, rape for recreation, torture (and specifically burning alive), assassination of critics, slavery, sex slavery, castration of male slaves. The theology says that all non-muslims are required to pay for the privilege of staying alive, and support muslims on their backs because muslims are the only right rulers of the world. This is a crude, black-hearted, medieval creed. It is, perhaps, a step up from mass human sacrifice, but in today's world, it has no place in human society. Without facing this, squarely, and calling out this worse than Nazi creed, there is no real address to the root of the problem.
If I read another ass-clown like Haviv Gur purporting to be an "analyst" babble about Assad's butchery, I will vomit. In context, that is no different than those who jabber about the poor Gazans or poor Hamas! Assad bent over backwards for a decade to bring the Muslim brotherhood into Syrian politics. Assad released "political prisoners" en masse. Their response was attacks and assassinations, invasions of schools to kill teachers and professors. So, Assad circled the village that housed the clan that was the root of the Muslim brotherhood in Syria, killed them all, and bulldozed it into the sand. This worked. This is, in fact, what Israel must do in Gaza. You have seen the razor-wire the Egypt erected to keep Gazans out of Egypt? Egypt would do it if necessary to prevent that monstrous camp from infecting their nation. What Assad did is the only thing that will work against the children raised to be monsters for allah.
In the USA? There is a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist cadre of self-appointed philosopher would-be king-dictators centered in New York. (They came out of philosophy departments, mostly on the coasts.) They have a wealthy Wall Streeter who funded and ran the Occupy movement. They found Occupy wanting because even though they diligently made sure that no solution came out of Occupy, the people of America did not take to the streets with guns. They had no rabble-army to ride to overthrow of the country. (I heard them myself talking about exactly this.) Those cadre turned to advising islamists on Maoist tactics of war in Pakistan. (I heard them talking about this.) So, of course those sociopathic little manipulators would choose to side with violent islamists here in the USA. Those dimwitted, vicious children of privilege actually believe that they could ride a wave of islamist militants to overthrow the USA, and that they could manipulate things to be the dictators-in-charge. For our own good. Of course. Why? Because they, just like you, do not comprehend the power of fanatical religion. Religion is the opiate of the masses, and they are mentally incapable of taking seriously any religious group.
This inability to comprehend fanatic religionists is shared by our foreign policy "experts" who routinely support and ally with islamists all over the world if it seems convenient to use them as proxy warfare actors. (I'm speaking of Hilary Clinton, Joe Biden, Antony Blenken, etc.) Regime change by our government is very similar to regime change by our home-grown Marxist-Leninist-Maoists who are frustrated that Americans don't want civil war.
You in the media, Bari, Haviv, Oren, and the rest --- you know who those people are. You know who that Wall Streeter is who funded Occupy. You liked Occupy basically, and thought it was a nice thing. So did I, until I learned what they were doing at the top echelon. You just don't know what their real agenda is. You think that they are just nice leftie sorts wanting good things. They are not. They salivate for violent overthrow so they can rule, because, obviouisly to them, they are the smartest people ever. You also know who funded and architected the BLM riots and the buses that took core rioters from place to place. You know. You just don't pry deep enough. You don't really know what is going on there. And I don't think you want to know. It shakes up your view of the world.
Very well explained, thank you. The only quibble? That Israel doesn't know it.
I believe Israel knows its enemy perfectly well. What it can't do is act on it, not without the Israel-hating United Nations rounding up a coalition army to stop the "genocide Israel is inflicting on poor little freedom fighters who only want to worship their god as we do."
Doubt this? See how much shrieking the world is doing now, when Israel is not remotely genociding Gaza, only conducting a proper albeit brutal war? Killing the 7th Century Islamic theocrats and their armies of Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestine Jihad, the ayatollahs of Iran, and others would result in a world war--against Israel.
What Israel is doing in Gaza now is as close as it can get to wiping out the entire hornet's nest of Islamic whack jobs. It's not enough to end the problem, and barely enough to avoid crippling sanctions and sending of the world's UN armies into Jerusalem.
But Israel *knows* its real enemy, and it's what you describe.
I don't think so. Every Israeli, even the former head of Mossad, is hamstrung by Judaism, which is nothing like Islam. The former head of Mossad came out against the apartheid. Most people in Israel do not comprehend what Islam actually says. They recoil from it. Every Jew I have ever discussed this with has expressed that Islam is fundamentally similar, because it has to be since it's a religion. I speak as someone who has read articles from their defense journal. Just the fact that they routinely speak in terms of preserving the heads of the PLO Hamas and Hezbollah to negotiate them makes it clear.
The world war against you speak of would not happen if it was carried out quickly enough. The world would be shocked, but world war? No. There are also other methods, but we won't discuss that.
Nobody in the USA I talk to believes that the secret cadre running Occupy were Marxist-Leninist-Maoists bent on revolution. I was there. I got out and instantly took evasive action. Within 10 seconds the big beefy guy from the head office in New York came looking for me. We both know what that would have been about. I knew things they didn't want me to be able to tell. But understanding this, a whole lot makes sense since then, including them moving on to think they can ride an islamist rabble to overthrow this country's government.
"Every Jew I have ever discussed this with has expressed that Islam is fundamentally similar, because it has to be since it's a religion."
Very interesting. I'm Jewish, but absolutely understand that Islam is not a religion in the "Ten Commandments, Golden Rule, peace to all" way of Judaism and Christianity. Islam requires "submission"--it says so right in the name--and anyone who doesn't submit to Islamic rule is an infidel to be murdered.
I understand that most everyday people think all other religions are just like theirs: let's get along, we're bringing peace to the world. But it's hard to imagine that Western and Israeli leadership--particularly military--doesn't understand that theocratic Islam is radically different because it REQUIRES the death of anyone who isn't Muslim, and REQUIRES the nations of the world to submit to Islamic rule. How can they not know that? I know it and I'm no Patton or even Buck Private Gericke.
I know nothing about Occupy leadership so I will take your word as true. I do know that the founding leaders of BLM were hard-core Marxists who'd happily use Mao rules to impose their will. Fortunately for us, I think BLM was about the grift and the race shakedowns--give me money and nobody gets hurt--rather than world domination.
Is Occupy still a Thing, or has it pretty much died away? I read almost nothing about it any more.
That's good. I'm glad to have met a Jew that gets it. So many veer off into denial land.
The point of the discussion of Occupy leadership is that they have moved on. They took over the leadership of "the left" back then. They had control of "the left" then, and still do. Since then, BLM riots all over the country to move us toward civil war. Pro-Palestinian rally support now. They are still at it, a key cadre intent on overthrow from within. All they have to do is provide support at key moments and do what they can to throw their support behind X, Y, or Z. The "Our Revolution" people appear to be a voice for them. As with all politics, its not a single force that controls everything. We Americans frustrate the living daylights out of them. They, in turn, adapt and shift, searching for the formula that will bring "helter-skelter". (And there are foreign powers that are helping them, as we see on tik-tok. Would Xi make use of Maoists intent on overthrow? Would we do the reverse in China?)
Thank you! Couldn’t be better explained.
The American press ABSOLUTELY cannot be trusted.
It is sickening that you are buying into all the propaganda.
Let's pretend that I think what you just said is stupid and indefensible; and that if you are speaking honestly, your own press, wherever you are, does nothing but lie to you.
What rational and fact based defense could you offer for what you just said? You have the opportunity. I simply doubt that you have the ability. It is and always has been hard to defend the indefensible.
But you have a platform. Do something other than embarrass yourself and your cause, if you can.
As hard as it may be to stomach, we’re at the point where the entire world needs to witness the videos of the Hamas brutality on October 7th.
Of course, you’d have your usual fringe group that would say the videos are fake/propaganda, but I think we’re at that point.
Expose the horrors of 10/7. Make the whole world witness the evil of Hamas.
How? People won't watch things that they don't want to watch. On most issues, the truth is not far away, but will always remain far enough away to be denied by those committed to willful ignorance.
I am astonished daily by the contortions possible for those willing to make the effort. One undervalued aspect of honesty is that it is vastly less work over the long run than all its alternatives.
How? You have the Emergency Broadcast System. Every station, every network. Every YouTube channel. Everything. Give no one an option. War has come looking for us; this isn't a war of choice: this is existential, it is about time we all recognised that and took the gloves off.
Put snuff films on all the networks around the clock? I don't think that's going to fly.
And war has not come looking for us yet, outside of some shipping problems that mainly affect Europe. It probably will, but there is a small chance it may not. Putting Trump back in office would help a whole lot in that regard.
People in powerful positions already know what happened, they were presented with hard facts.
Like UN Women Organizations were fully informed and still said nothing for weeks?!
NYT accused Israel of bombing a hospital minutes after, exact number of dead, based on Hamas report! Hamas report!!!
Journalists report civilian casualty numbers in Gaza based on reports of Gaza’s ministry of health, who are Hamas! But it’s being presented as absolute truth.
I am speaking about the biased U.S. press. They are completely untrustworthy. The two things most distrusted in the U.S. is Congress and the media.
I listen to a lot of debates (not one-sided positions) on the issues. And, I was in the West Bank for three weeks.
I disagree. Lets take as one obvious example: Bari just offered up a thirty minute commentary. What claims seem wrong to you? Why?
I think you support the rape and murder and women and children, if they are Jewish, and that you animated by a sick hate. Am I wrong?
Actually, I enjoy hearing Bari's opinions on many issues. I've heard her speak on this issue a few times. Like Ben Shapiro, she is too blindly Jewish to make sense. I do not respect her opinion on this issue.
Only an idiot would say that another supports rape and murder.
24,000+ Palestinians have been murdered and that's all you've got?
It’s a war. That was started by Hamas. Murder is what Hamas did. You got your head on backwards.
"Like Ben Shapiro, she is too blindly Jewish to make sense. I do not respect her opinion on this issue."
So because they are Jewish and their view is different than yours, you have no respect to their views.
The Palestinians started a war of choice on October 7th. This is 100% of their own making and people die in war. That is what war is.
Welcome to the land of bigotry.
Palestinians murdered? In a war they started by raping, beheading and killing women, children, the elderly and, OBTW some men as well? Playing with a severed breast while filming it and calling their parents to brag about how many unarmed peace concert-goers they are butchering? Yes, that's all we've got. Just that.
"Bari is too blindly Jewish to make sense."
I wrote several polite responses to this. After reading the rest of your antisemitic drivel, politeness is not appropriate.
Go fuck yourself with an IDF grenade.
So, to be clear, you unequivocally condemn the rape, torture, kidnapping and murder of Jewish men, women and children; and whatever else you think about the war, you view this as a criminal activity without any possible moral justification?
I think we both know the answer to that. You're not a person, you are a type. And honestly ChatGPT--which by the way came out against Anti-Semitism and its iterations in forms like "from the river to the sea. . "--would probably be more believable.
Prove me wrong by saying something both decent and true. I don't think you can.
If I remember correctly, it has been reported in nearly every war with Israel that the Palestinians like Hamas use women and children as shields. Yes, many of them are killed, but Hamas WANTS that so their apologists in the West will blame Israel.
Islam preaches that it WILL be the ruler of the world. And, war is the fastest was to accomplish that. If you don't believe me, read the Koran. It is what my Palestinian Muslim neighbor across the street has said several times. I was invited to a party and the other men must have thought I was Muslim because they talked about friends who were planning a terror attack, and about sending help to Hamas to buy guns and other weapons.
PS The terrorists were arrested because someone in their group reported them.
You are right. Israel created Hamas leaving Gaza and believing it would yield peace. Now they know better and will not make this mistake again. The two-state solution is no longer on the table. Since Hamas started the war, your imaginary 24,000 Palestinians are collateral damage of Hamas actions. Hamas has murdered them.
According to whom? The propagandists of psychopaths. Do one, chuck, "Sophia" you ain't: there is more wisdom in a rock.
If Hamas doesn't like all of the civilian casualties then why does it continuously start wars with Israel?
No wars no casualties. Pretty simple, huh?
You’re right that both are untrustworthy, but what specifics can you give that anyone thinking like Susan buys into the propaganda? The news now is completely split, so which is propaganda and which isn’t? This is question I ask myself because I don’t know who to believe about this topic. I can’t get beyond what happened on October 7, and yet I know much has happened prior to that which we don’t know due to media bias. But the media sure has changed since October 7. And so if we’re not to believe the media, are we to believe the Palestinian/hamas protesters? No thanks you!
Linda, I'm starting to compile a Cliff notes version of history that had lead us to this point - publishing here for criticism so I can correct factual errors.
People have been documented living in the area some people now call Palestine, and some call Israel, including the regions known as West Bank and Gaza, for thousands of years. The modern descendants of these people usually identify ethnically as either Jew or Arab. Arabs tend to be Muslim or Christian, but also other minority groups such as Druze.. Neither Palestine not Israel is a name with continuous indigenous usage (I could be wrong about the latter). Palestine was a name used by Europeans, including the British, who ruled there from the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1917, until 1948. There was a lot of immigration to this region during this period. Before that it was thinly populated (based on accounts at https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/the-palestinian-myth-a-view-from-the-arab-perspective-fpdwbp2e).
There were sometimes violent disagreements about who could live where. A Jewish state named Israel was authorised by international fiat in 1948. Jews forcibly and violently removed some Arabs, to what must have been then parts of Jordan and Egypt. Other sources suggest these people fled their homes as a result of the then ongoing way between Jews and Arabs. Presumably that truth is a mixture of both readings for displacement. Muslim Arab nations responded by expelling Jews. The Arabs who had been removed were understandably upset and have since by turns violently and peacefully and politically attempted to return. The Jews allowed a substantial number of Arabs, of several faiths, to remain in Israel. Muslim Arab nations have warred with Israel several times, ostensibly on behalf of the removed people, who eventually came to be known (and identify) as Palestinians. Having lost territories they once held to Israel as a result, these nations would prefer to see the Palestinians as separate rather than absorbing them and the regions they occupy into their own states of Israel and Jordan.
Uniquely among all the displaced people's in history, the Palestinians have been successful in establishing international support for their right to return, and also, alternatively, their right to a two state solution, neither of which for various reasons have come to fruition.
I hope this is a reasonably accurate summary of the main facts and events.
LOL..............the first offer of a 2 state solution was in 1936.....the Pace Accord from the League of Nations. The Palestinians rejected it outright even though the land offered the Jews was a small slice of the area and the worst land available. Jerusalem's Mayor stated they would never live along side the Jews an inferior race of people. So no, your history is not close to being accurate. In 1947 the now United Nations offered a two state solution, again, the Jews were on board even though the land they were offered was a small slice of the area and not productive. Within hours of forming Israel in 1948, the Arab League nations attacked the Jews, but were repelled. So it has always been. Offers go out to the Arabs, they reject and attack.
Read a little more deeply into the time the Jews first started moving into what is now Israel in 1948. Many Arabs ran away because the thought the Jews would massacre them. But Arabs have been massacring Jews for centuries. They turned around and tried to destroy Israel almost before it was born. They are taught to hate Jews. There are schools called Madrasas where children are only taught the Koran and have for Jews and America. They do not get taught much else.
The Arabs are not originally from the Levant. It’s in their name.
If you care, do your own research because nothing that comes from the American press can be trusted.
Don't forget the WORLD is against the Zionist's genocide.
‘Zionist genocide’ is all I need to know you are a Jew hater. Stfu
Not so, Sophia. There are many decent non-Jewish people who are 100% behind Israel right now. But (drumroll!) since you are confused about which side has the moral high ground, please answer these two questions:
1. Can you imagine Israel using Israeli women and children as human shields?
2. And if you can, do you think Hamas will be deterred or encouraged by such shields?
I have not yet found anyone thinking as you do who will answer the questions. The answers are obvious to all, and silence means you know what Hamas is, but you do not care. That makes you wicked. And if you answer 'yes' to the first, and 'encouraged' to the second, that makes you evil. Should you 'answer 'No' and 'deterred' there is hope for you.
Is this the same world that 80 years ago enabled the first Holocaust, and - along with several dozen new jihadist fundamentalist regimes - would happily endorse a second?
How self centered and self righteous of you to speak for me in saying "the WORLD is against the Zionist genocide".
The depth of narcissistic self importance to speak for the entire world is mind-numbing.
Until you come right out with it and say you hate Jews you will forever remain a coward.
It's YOU who has to live with your putrid, vile self.
Compost 3.0?
I have many very close Palestinian friends and many Jewish friends that are trying to tell me the true story. Do you think their stories are the same? My goodness the telling of history isn’t even the same anymore. I care deeply for humanity. I hate war, and the hatred that I see in this country is like never before in my long life. This world is a disaster right now, and I’m sure God is not pleased.
Exactly! Koran says you can enter into negotiations with infidel only in order to pretend and mislead. Btw Muslims who don’t pray 5 times daily are considered infidels and deserve death, so make a simple calculation who all of you are...
To some greatly lesser extent, I think Islam has their equivalent of functionally apostate Jews, just as there are Mormons who drink alcohol.
I think most human progress comes from the defects in systems. Nothing good can happen in a hermetically sealed, perfectly protected system. To my mind, this is the core problem with Islam: the claim made is that the system is perfect and that no improvements are possible. I think this breeds childish, angry, and violent people, at least under any form of stress. Most people are fine when they have no stress placed on them, and that was the case for most Muslim majority nations for some hundreds of years. But that has changed, and most are not adapting very well.
Absolutely. When they don’t write about Hamas sexual violence for months you know they are biased against Israel. When they accuse Israel of bombing a hospital when Islamic jihad did it!
What propaganda? Care to elaborate on what facts the American press is, in your opinion, twisting? Do you think Hamas did not rape-kill-maim all those Jews and foreign visitors? Do you believe Israel should leave Hamas alone when it promises more such pogroms agains the Jews? Spell out what our press getting wrong and turning into propaganda?
They can’t be trusted but not from tne side Sophia says. From the other side.
It's fine--and smart--to be a media skeptic. When the media are obligated to twist news to fit a certain audience expectation or go out business from that audience abandoning them for another provider, I must regard any news report with skepticism.
But that's a far cry from "you can't trust any of them on anything." Most general newspapers try to get the facts right on what they cover. The twisting occurs in what they choose to cover--or, not. Hunter Biden, for instance. When they finally got around to reporting his case, the facts were pretty accurate. What they failed to do was cover him at all for at least a year, and that was a political decision.
You're suggesting the Times, Post, et al, are so pro-Israel as to not report the Palestinian perspective? I'd argue the opposite: they go out of their way to slam Israel and softsoap Hamas, Hezbollah, and other Palestinian atrocities. They also twist the history of Palestine to make it appear as if Israel stole "Palestinian" land and ethnically cleansed Palis. That's not remotely the case.
The coverage is not 100 percent imbalanced, but the shots taken at Israel and not at Palis occur too often for my comfort.
I agree with you! I think they are totally biased against Israel. WaPo is the voice of Hamas.
I'm delighted we're on the same page, Not so young. I hate that we have to be on the same page, because that means the major media as so profoundly anti-Israel. I cancelled my subscription to WaPo for precisely that reason: its coverage of Israel and Palestinians, along with its anti-gun obsessions, was so profound and in-your-face that I felt they no longer deserve a dime from me. So I cancelled six months ago and haven't missed it a bit.
You mean the subtle kind, like the NPR journalist Peter Kenyon, on Israeli soccer player Sagiv Jehezkel wearing a wristband with a Star of David and the message 100 days, 7/10?
Starting at about 2.22 of the NPR News Now report of 01-15-2024 8AM EST:
"Oct 7th, the day Israel says Hamas militants killed some 1200 people in southern Israel, and took others hostage"
"Israel says", like this is possibly a disputed fact?
To be fair to him, it's possibly how he has to report the news, either die to NPR policy, or the fact he's reporting from inside Turkey, which seems to take a dim view of anything pro-Israel.
That is true. But events of the last few years have honed in many a distinct nose for things that simply do not add up. Like a group that screams genocide and enflames emotion by doing so when its population has doubled since 2005. There are other examples and this issue is not the only one where the narrative, whatever drives it, is faulty.
Good observations. And decent recall of past reportage.
...and the useful idiots will tiptoe away from the scene of their crime unscathed and still unaware.
Upside-down and inside-out world we live in.
I just saw journalist asking a normal looking, well to do woman waking with a normal looking guy - could be my neighbors - why she ripped down posters of Israeli hostages and she replied very calmly and politely “because it’s proven a fake”
Terrorists are freedom fighters.
Tunnels with weapons to kill civilians is freedom fighting.
Gorgeous, developed land on Mediterranean shore received to prosper on is called occupied by Israel.
But why be surprised?
We have men who can give birth and breastfeed.
Women are birthing individuals.
Fathers are arrested protesting daughters being rapped in girls spaces by men pretending to be women. And repeat!
Drag queens in full night club getup reading to babies in libraries.
President of United States allowing drug addicted, degenerate son to represent him in business dealings with foreign entities and calling it FATHERLY LOVE!
You put into words what I could not. I am also non jewish, living in a town of 400. I will never be okay again.
Brilliant and truthful. Thank you.
So damn-well said Susan.
Let us be perfectly clear here, Israel's actions against Hamas are NOT the reason for rising antisemitism. That demon resides in the hearts of those expressing it and has ALWAYS resided there! All that is needed is a spark, or in this case a war, to fan those flames in the hearts of those who need to be utterly humiliated and defeated. Hamas feeds into this by operating in civilian areas. The unfortunate, and inescapable, case is that Palestinians will die. It is not Israel's fault alone, but is primarily the fault of Hamas, Iran, and everyone in the world who support them, even those in the USA!
Indeed. The trope that Gaza was ‘an open air prison’ was ridiculous. And any poverty there was due to Hamas theft of aid.
It feels to me that what has LEAD TO an unprecedented attack on Israel, in part, is the general decay we are seeing around the globe, but particularly with Israel's traditional allies. There is chaos everywhere... So much chaos, that no one is paying attention to the morals/values and unity of their countries....
America was historically one of Israel's staunchest supporters and backers... but the language around that is much more iffy now.
You cannot take America (or Israel) down using guns. No way. but you CAN take America, and therefore her allies like Israel, down from within. The Left, and their henchmen like Fauci, are the enemy within.
Their tactic of taking focus off of guarding American ideals are extremely effective. This is a whole new kind of warfare. They create CONSTANT chaos that keeps us unfocused, on edge and fighting, and not paying attention to how they are dismantling the American way.... and hence, protection for our allies as well... The many, many examples of this chaos:
-Deliberately doing unconstitutional things just for the sake of the legal battle.
-BLM
-Defund the police
-Aggressively Promoting black victimhood
-CRT in our universities and at large... encouraging open hostility towards whites
-LGBTQ and attack of children by trans ideology and pedophiles
-America being the biggest market for human trafficking
-Trans against women sports and in safe places for women (bathrooms, etc)
-Saying that Trans "women" men are better women than biological women
-Illegal immigrants and unsafe borders, allowing in terrorists and spies
-Anti-semitism
-Support of Hamas terrorists
-Anti-colonialism - like as if any of it can be undone... practically every tribe, every peoples, every country has done colonialism during the course of their history
-DEI in our universities, especially the ones training our future leaders
-DEI hires, like in the airline industry
-Out of control inflation
-Covid - all of it! Lockdowns, "social distancing", face masks
-Dakota Access pipeline
-Media censorship
-Media manipulation of facts or printing only partial truths.
-Legalizing marijauan (skunk smell everywhere and addicts have taken over our cities)
Abortion issues which have been galvanizing the country for years...
-In many blue states like CA, making it illegal to investigate infant deaths up to 28 days AFTER birth, Late term abortions of fully viable babies
-Federal funding of abortions which was disallowed before
-Planned Parenthood openly admitting to extracting tissues and organs from still-alive fetuses (and specifically targeting teenage mothers for these).
There are so many things for Americans to be angry about now. Our focus is in a hundred different places... and it is no longer on the real enemy, like terrorists, it's on trying to calm fears about racism which was no longer a major issue in America. How effective the enemy within has been.
I would add vaccine injury to the list. Citizens were terrorized for years by “news” organizations like CNN with its screen rolling death count. Get vaccinated! Get vaccinated! Now, when 20 year olds keel over and die, and alarming “excess death” and disability data is reported, no questions are allowed. Before a barista could ask your vaccine status. There is a profound feeling of being gaslighted.
That's "vaccine." They literally changed the definition.
Not too bright either.
You probably believe that Jews bake blood into matzoh. GTFO.
Gonna poison your well Sophia. That’s what we Zionists do!
Robert, absolutely! This situation has only given already anti-Jewish thoughts a place to come out. It is allowing prejudices a voice, a way for people to say the quiet part out-loud now.
Understanding and deep seated anti Semitism of Islam has not been strong suit of Free Press
Bernard Lewis: Pied Piper of Islamic Confusion | Dr. Andrew Bostom
https://www.andrewbostom.org/2011/08/bernard-lewis-pied-piper-of-islamic-confusion/
Al-Azhar’s Ongoing 75-Year Annihilationist Jihad Against the Jews of Israel | Dr. Andrew Bostom
https://www.andrewbostom.org/2023/11/al-azhars-ongoing-75-year-annihilationist-jihad-against-the-jews-of-israel/
Thanks for the links. Another set of very useful confirmations of what I've learnt since first reading Crone and Cook's 'Hagarism' forty years ago. You hope to hear it mainstream someday but folk prefer delusion to truth.
I’m glad you mentioned Iran, the elephant in the room behind so much mayhem and death, which seems to avoid accountability.
The occupying Zionist created Hamas.
Why don’t you tell the truth? Not that bullshit lingo that you read somewhere? What’s the occupying Zionist? It is a meaningless term.
It’s a word salad of slogans
And wild-eyed antisemitism.
Like I said, not too bright either.
What is the occupying Zionist? Please explain.
The Zionist is the Israeli government. They forced the Israel state back in 1948 by forcing 750,000 Palestinians into Jordan with no return.
Zionist are the land grabbers. The ongoing protest in Israel are against Netanyahu, who they call a criminal the Zionist gov't he formed.
Do you own research.
Thanks for the info. I always thought in 1948, those 750,000 Arabs were told by egyptians, Syrians and Jordanians to leave Israel because the Arabs were going to be attacking and they should get out of harms way and then they could return. Whoops, they believed the Arabs and fled. When the Israelis won, they became homeless but no other Arab country wanted them. IOW they backed the wrong horse. I also thought that those Arabs that remained are now fully integrated into Israeli society as citizens of Israel.
Thanks for setting me straight there Sophia. Otherwise I’d believe actual historical fact.
You are quite good at spouting idiotic propaganda. Please read a book. Idiot.
Could you tell us all what country you are from? And what prompted you to spend three weeks in the West Bank? Are you a student?
What is your source. You probably used Socialists of America as your source
Please name a real country, its capital, president, prime minister or king that was captured by the Zionists.
And then name at least one settlement in which Arabs lived before 1948, but now they don’t live there, and Zionists live instead.
As opposed to the occupying Muslim tyrannies of the preceding 1400 years. We know more than you do, chuck, and always will.
And Israel laments its decision to support Hams as a tactic to weaken Arafat's power base in the West Bank. But "occupiers"? Jews have "occupied" Palestine for a few thousand years.
Dumbest argument of ALL.
Whose land is your house occupying? Should you be forced out so that their ancestors can live there.
If the occupiers were doing the right and moral thing, the world would not be against it.
We are not Jew haters, we are anti-Zionists.
One thing we’ve learned from 10/7 and the pro-Hamas reaction, is that the distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism is mostly sophistry. So own your prejudice and hatred, at least be honest with yourself. You’re not fooling anybody else.
Sophia's replies sound adolescent -- certainty armed with ignorance. You are arguing with a stubborn 12-year-old.
More propaganda! It is not pro-Hamas, it is the evils of the Zionist occupation that we protest. It is long overdue.
Sophia, allow me to educate you. In the year AD 689 on Mount Moriah work began on what we now call the Dome of the Rock. It occupied the very spot where Jewish Temple and its Holy of Holiest (where Ark once stood) location in Jerusalem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriah
Muhammad followers were expressing their authority over Jews by doing this. But it went farther than that. Running along both sides of Dome of Rock arcade were verses disparaging the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, stating that Jesus was only a messenger of God. This was done to both reopen Christian theological debate settled centuries prior that Jesus was God himself in flesh (Son of God) but also to condemn the entire New Testament/Gospels. You know what other versus were carved into Dome of the Rock? They were series of revelations that Muhammad followers said had been given to him (Muhammad) directly by the angel, Gabriel. These versus later became the Qur’an. By claiming (like Moses) that the Qur’an text was literally from the very mouth of God, it expressed superiority over the New Testament (which was written by mortal men). This is why the Qur’an mentions Moses over 130 times. Moses’ and ancient Israel’s exodus from Pharaoh/Egypt was hijacked to justify/give fuel to Arab/Saracens own conquests over Judea, then subsequently across Africa and up into south modern day France. Arabs at time referred to themselves as ‘muhajirun’ or ‘those that have undertaken an exodus’. By AD 792 Arab Seracens ‘exodus’ had made almost all the way to shrine of Saint Martin at Tours (the holiest Christian site at time) Thankfully at Poiters the Franks prevailed in battle vs. the muhajirun and this marked the beginning of end of that Caliphate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours
History is available to you, if you’d like to seek it. This battle goes back at least 1,335 years to time when Dome of the Rock was built over Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. Muslims at this time made it known that both Jews and Christians were, inferior, then took up the Sword to press in that point. And the band has played on ever since.
Sophia, have you educated yourself on why the Zionist movement came to be?
You ARE a Jew hater. It's ok to say that. There are many proud Jew haters around these days. Why deny it? Join with Claudine Gay and Liz Magill and all the others. These are proud academic women!
Sure. Just like the early Mohammedans, the Inquisition, the Crusaders, the Cossacks, the Nazis. They were all just anti-Zionists!
The world needs more Mel Brooks.
The Inquisition... what a show!
Ah, Sophia, you just don't like some stuff, and like other stuff. What a way to live.
You mean like you.
No you are a Jew hater hiding a buzzword.
Is the best plan for you like the protesters we see disrupting life daily in this country…to push the Jews out of Israel by killing them? I’ve heard this from the mouths of protesters. Truly disgusting.
You are a Nazi liar who doesn't even realize it.
Wow. A Nazi liar subscribes to the Free Press just troll us.
Only Haviv Rettig Gur touched on, what I feel, is the biggest disconnect, and that is that this isn't a war between Israel and the 'Palestinians', but against Radical Islam as being managed, funded and promoted by Iran. No solution can be found in peace talks between the Palestinians and Israel, as Iran, who controls the out come, which in their mind, requires the death of Jews and elimination of Israel.
The Palestinians are just a group of people who have never been accepted by most of the Arabs in the ME, and are still not welcome in any of the nations surrounding Israel. They've been a pawn in the larger war between the ME, and now Persia against the state of Israel.
Until we frame this conflict for what it is, a religious war, and who controls the entity that is currently orchestrating it, Iran, this conflict can't end.
That brings up a problem closer to home. Barak Obama has been behind the US support for building a stronger Iran as he believes Israel has too much power in the ME. This is a hugely flawed strategy, and Trump not only stopped it, but between the Abraham Accords, the moving of the embassy and other things, reinforced our commitment to Israel while strengthening their relationships to the ME. Once Joe Biden was elected it became clear that Obama was still highly influential in the Biden Administration as we again embarked on supporting Iran by reinstituting many flawed Obama policies.
Until we drop the façade that this is an Israel-Palestinian conflict, and acknowledge that this is Iran versus Israel, and all of the West, this conflict will never be resolved. You can't find a political solution to a religious war.
Totally correct, Jon. I said something very similar further down the string.
Nope, this is a war with Islam funded by any anti-semite/anti-western individual, organisation, non-state, or state with deep enough pockets.
But then, you know, if you look at Persia's entire history, they've always been a loser. kriste, even the gay Greeks beat them, twice, not to mention the kid-Macedonian. And like with India and others, Great Britain had to show them how to build railroads -- kriste, for all I know, had to show them a wheel.
Actually, Persia had a long period of pre-eminence and flourishing. It is a great source of pride for Iranians, who think little of their current klepto-theocratic government.
"Even the gay Greeks."
Come, now. Only in some social strata, in some places. I do not disapprove of the practice, but your characterization of an ancient civilization in this way seems a bit off in tone.
Maybe, but you gotta admit, it has a nice ring to it
Gay Greeks - Gerard Butler screaming “This is Wonka” Perish the thought.
Except for the 900 years they were either THE world power or one of three before Islam. After Islam they were a Great Power again for centuries and only really eclipsed after c.1800. Iranian civilisation vies with that of the Han, and ONLY the Han for longevity.
Geez, I'll have to revisit how the Khan overran and ruled not only them but most of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, 1200 to 1400. I could be wrong. Nevertheless, it still took Britain to teach them to build a railroad. By the way, the Han ruled nothing outside the wall, their choice.
They get knocked down; they get up and their enemies wind up looking distinctly Persian. Given half a chance they make a comeback. Did I say anything other than that? No.
Distracted and distracting, both of us wasting our wit on Persia/Iran.
I will simply say that America didn't worry too much about civilian deaths in World War 2. We just didn't talk about them. Think of that scene in Saving Private Ryan where the father, in an apartment whose entire side has been blown off by artillery fire, tries to give his kid to Vin Diesel. France was filled with ruins like that. So too, presumably, were Belgium and Holland and obviously Germany. And we blew up outright Hiroshima and Nagasaki, after killing even more people in fire bombing attacks that preceded them.
Israel has to try and control the land of an enemy which uses every square inch, PARTICULARLY civilian areas which would otherwise be exempt from attack. They have to control the whole, in order to fully eliminate the tunnels which are used for everything from torture and rape rooms to weapons manufacture and storage.
And as I have been saying nearly from the outset, when Gaza is rebuilt with international money--we all know this is the future--the architects of this disaster will make billions. It would be an interesting move for Israel somehow to make land title transfers a condition for a cease fire. I would have to look at the details to make specific plans, but that a good lawyer and someone who understands development could do some interesting and disruptive things seems likely. Maybe they reserve one square foot per block and sell it dearly.
But I have been saying since the Obama years that the fact that the American people were capable of supporting someone about whom they knew so little was the largest problem our nation faced, not Obama himself. That the propaganda has been so effective is obviously correlated with an overall diminishment both of general knowledge, and the ability to perform basic reasoning, of which moral reasoning is one component.
There will never be peace in the Middle East as long as there are useful idiots in the West.
That last sentence is a pearl. Hope you don't mind if I save and share.
Sure. Share as widely as you like, with or without attribution.
“Sure. Share as widely as you like, with or without attribution.”
Things that were never said to Claudine Gay:)
Great comments, UF. I love your idea of transferring title to Palestinian citizens. They would have much more stake in peace and development. Right now they are just wards of the UN.
That wasn't what I intended, but I actually support that. My intent was to prevent the Qatari billionaires who seemingly created and funded this war from profiting from it.
But the most equitable means of doing that might be to entrust the land and following improvements (new high rises paid for by the EU, OPEC nations and the US) to ordinary people, perhaps as a form of shared stock.
And I will emphasize I don't really know what I'm talking about. I am speculating. But I'm usually pretty close to the mark. I can't otherwise fathom how any of this would have been rational for anyone anywhere, unless arms merchants were behind it, which is probably a little less cynical than using your own people as cannon fodder to make money you don't need.
I've no idea where the arms merchants were when first Mo rocked up in Palestine 1400-odd years ago, but killing Jews has been a Muslim thing from the beginnining. Arms dealers or no; a Muslim's first order of business is "Kill the Jew".
It has been my experience, as I get older and read more history, that what I THOUGHT was the story was not necessarily the story. Historically, there have been many times and places where the Muslims rulers were less barbaric than their Christian counterparts, or so it has long seemed to me. Certainly the Jews in Spain were safe under the Moors and were cast out by the Christians.
But I only recently came across this story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamilla_Pool
Here is a somewhat longer version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasanian_conquest_of_Jerusalem
The gist is that Jews had been banned from entering Jerusalem off and on for 500 years or so. When a Muslim Army was marching to conquer, or at least occupy, Jerusalem, many Jews joined them. Once the conquest was complete, they massacred Christians, with numbers ranging from 5,000 up to 60,000.
But the sides kept shifting and everybody kept engaging in mass murder, over and over, in the City of Peace.
I will say that I have Robert Spencer's "Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam" on my shelf, and have read many of his columns, if not that book, and am certainly broadly aware of the history and theology. But I will always believe that times and people change, sometimes even while seeming to say the same words.
Is it stupid for Europe to import and then tolerate large numbers of people who hate them? Of course. Of course. But that doesn't make Islam the enemy. The real enemy is almost always stupidity, here exemplified by failing to realize that a liberal democracy cannot survive if illiberal authoritarians become the majority.
Please. It is incumbent on the Jews to win their war, which they have refused to do. They refused since 2006 to do what was necessary. Ike didn’t delay D-Day 17 years, until the Germans were better prepared!
Instead the Israelis thought they could hide in their holes and ignore the rockets like some bad freezing rain.
If Israel can’t win a war because they’re worried what western liberals think, they’re even more pathetic than previously imagined!
So, to the chorus of voices saying "the Jews" are overreacting you want to add your own criticism that they are not doing enough? Amazing.
I'm on the internet too much every day, and even I am sometimes surprised at the forms of ideational life out there, species whose existence I had not suspected.
Puh-Leaze. We’ve been watching the Jews accept missiles being shot at their homes for decades now, and always respond by taking a few pot-shots while hiding in their holes until the storm passes. Until the next season starts. While of course taking more of the West Bank the whole time.
What a sad state. Glad we had Lincoln and not a bi-bi.
I'm curious: have you ever been shot at, or heard shots fired in anger? Your tone is that of someone who watches TV and lurks on the internet 16-20 hours a day, when you are not a sulky clerk in a convenience store somewhere.
You've got a pizza belly, a microwave you use several times a day to cook something out of a box, watch way too much porn, and have a large collection of war related books and movies.
How'd I do?
I might add that Bibi was a member of Sayeret Mat'Kal--General Staff Reconnaisance--the structure of which was a likely inspiration for our own creation of JSOC. He saw extensive combat, and his brother led and was killed at the Raid on Entebbe.
Lincoln never fought a day in his life. He almost had to fight a duel and thereafter learned not to insult people. Personally, I am far from convinced the Civil War was a good idea, even if obviously freeing the slaves was.
I don't know why I wrote that, but I'm going to post it. It may be useful to someone.
Microwaving food while watching porn…is that the pastime of Israelis hiding in their holes?
lol as a veteran all I can do is laugh. Go hide in your hole. Maybe set a table for Anne Frank, since she wasn’t able to hide in a hole in her ancestors land, but had to hide in Europe instead.
Lincoln didn’t stop until Unconditional Surrender was accepted. Israel will quit long before then.
One lesson of your civil war is don't make heroes; you'll be sadly disappointed if you look at them too closely.
Another is Unconditional Surrender works, but you have to have the strength to finish the job. Israel doesn’t.
There is very little comparison between the wars in the ME & WWII.
In 1941 the world was not waging a multi-thousand year religious war.
The Turks were able to rule splendidly until the Brits and French forced them out a century ago and invented the modern ME nation state. Since then, the best ME states have all been absolute dictatorships, bar none. (Except Israel, but they were founded by westerners, weren’t they?)
It really should be a much simpler solution than what the USA accomplished in the 20th Century. Of which modern Israel is likely a footnote. Maybe a chapter.
Oh, and France could not splendidly self govern until Hitler rescued them.
Or Poland. Or Tunisia. Or Algeria. Or China. Or the United Sates.
Do us a favor and take a very long hike pal.
Do me a favor and form a rebuttal that makes sense.
They attacked the British and Russian Empires first; they chose to get their heads kicked in. We'd rather not have had to do it, and sticking around afterwards was a mistake, but they kicked it off and duly got a kicking.
"...the American people were capable of supporting someone about whom they knew so little...
By Jove! You may have identified another meta flaw! Thanks!
Always remember that there was a ceasefire on October 6 that Hamas chose to end on October 7.
Any deaths of Gazans are on Hamas and only on Hamas.
"If anti-wokeness results in an inability to acknowledge profound power imbalances and the suffering of the truly marginalized, then I’m not sure it’s a movement that makes sense for those of us who cannot reconcile ourselves to the violations Palestinians must endure daily."
And why is this the case? Whose fault is it that these poor oppressed Palestinians must suffer such daily indignations?
Perhaps because they have repeatedly rejected offers for their own state, living in peace next to Israel? In 1937, 1947, 1967, 1990s, 2000, 2008, 2020? Perhaps because they have 100 years of intransigence, absolute commitment to violence and jihad, refusal to compromise or to accept legitimate Jewish indigenous claims to the land, and adherence to a Moloch death cult in which they raise their children to become martyrs while killing Jews? Perhaps because 'two states living side by side in peace and security' is not actually what they really want?
And progressive Western useful idiots only enable this "from the river to the sea" ultimate goal with their bigotry of low expectations, in which Palestinians have no agency and no responsibility for the choices they have made.
Who are the real racists here?
Yes yes yes. Exactly. I was once a naive liberal useful idiot westerner with sympathies for the Palestinians, for socialism, and other Good Liberal Causes. My sympathy for the Palestinians ended decades ago under the weight of however many blown up pizza cafes, burnt buses, stabbed women, etc, etc. Those people appear to have not one useful contribution to make to world civilization - terrorism is it. To hell with them.
Especially grating is their endless play of the Victim Card. The annoying WaPo person above phrased it as being on the receiving end of history - it’s always passive, never based on their own decisions. The fact is they overplayed their hand in and up to 1948, lost, and then instead of adapting and finding another play doubled down - to keep losing over and over. They still are under the delusion that everything since 1948 can be erased (including/especially all those nasty Jews), that history can be reversed and finally they will be victorious. Again, to hell with them.
Most people I know aren't "anti-woke" because of their inability to acknowledge power imbalances or injustice. The awareness is there - its the mind-numbing RESPONSES to it that we reject.
💯
I fear that support for Israel from the West will crater. More and more, if seems like pro-Palestine/anti-Israel sentiment is winning. I keep seeing headlines and reports from news media that give me an impression people 35 and younger are basically on the side against Israel. How much longer will the Biden administration hold on to its commitment to support Israel when its staff and the federal government staff keeps demanding they withdraw support? And even if Israel wins this war, what happens 10 years from now? Or 20? What happens when these younger generations take over and they overwhelmingly think Israel should not exist? Will Israel find itself all alone in the world in 30, 40 years' time?
I can't believe there are still so many Americans who still deny the brutal rapes and murders of women in Israel by Hamas didn't happen.
If it’s any consolation, I’m a GenX mom raising my GenZ child right. She can see and understands why Hamas is wrong. She is thoughtful and asks questions. There’s hopefully more like her out there then we think.
I can add two more non Jewish GenZs from my clan. And I know their friends are not in the pro-Hamas tribe either. There is hope.
It doesn't help that our country has an immigration policy that imports large numbers of unrepentant anti-Semites. Sadly, Jewish Democrat politicians share some of the blame for this.
Those politicians are democrats first and Jews second or last. Remember they couldn’t even condemn Omar or Tlaib for their virulent anti Semitism. It had to be watered down to just general hate of anybody or anything to get their votes.
What immigration policy? We have none. Everyone's just herding in through the TX border
Illegal immigration is certainly a very big part of the immigration equation. But the other side of the immigration equation is the change in legal immigration starting in the 1960's which shifted to focus more on immigration from the Third World as opposed to immigration from Europe which was more prevalent in previous decades. Hence the large number of Palestinian immigrants/Palestinian Americans who form the backbone of the current anti-Israel protests.
People 35 and under believe in whatever it looks like other people believe on social media.
They believe in nothing.
There was denial about the holocaust during World War 2 and since. Shameful
What else would you expect from people who refer to pedophiles as 'minor attracted persons'?
"What happens when these younger generations take over and they overwhelmingly think Israel should not exist? Will Israel find itself all alone in the world in 30, 40 years' time?"
In MUCH less time than that! 10 years, I'd say, at the maximum!
As the saying goes…elections have consequences, and 2020 election has show that to be true in so many areas. If Americans vote him in again, I will have lost faith that this country can turn around and move to a better place.
Where is the better place? (Asking for a friend.)
I’ll start with control of the open border which has let the most illegals ever into our country on Biden’s watch. And yet the admin continues to lie by blaming the former administration. They can’t even call it what it is…a crisis! But democrats don’t find this to be a top problem, so we could continue to let in unvetted illegals by the millions if Biden is elected. Unfortunately, Trump is closest to him in the polls than the rest of the candidates. If only…
That suggests that there is no "better place." And here I was thinking that I'd learn something new. Thanks anyway.
You’re welcome! But I’ll try again because you missed the easy point I made. The better place is a country with borders because that’s actually part of the definition of a country. The only way that happens is if a republican wins because it’s obviously not ever going to happen under Biden. But then, you knew that. You just prefer our borders be a free for all like it currently is.
Oops. I just read the operant phrase the third time and got it right. You said "move the country to a better place." I read "move (yourself) to a better place." Your conclusion in your last sentence nonetheless blows (what's left of) my mind. I'll just say that the non-border is only one, though arguably the most immediate, problem.
We have a difficult situation that you nailed on the head. Schools having been telling children that Palestine is in the right and Israel is evil. Did you see that school map on X the other day that didn't even list Israel as a nation? Our children are being educated by leftist activists that are lying to them. Over and over. That is where the support is. If you go and talk to these supporters, at least the young white ones, they have NO CLUE what is going on. Seriously. Its shocking. My family is Israeli. My BIL has moved his family back and forth between Silicon Valley CA and Tel Aviv over the last few years, and when they were in CA his oldest was even spewing those lies. We were all shocked, and when asked where he learned what he was saying about Palestine, it was "my teacher told me." And this was from an 8 year old who was born in Israel and had lived there for years before moving to the USA.
One thing no one is talking about, not even Bari: the education and employment pipeline to teaching jobs. We're at a breaking point and it's clear that the low salary combined with low reward and prestige, is resulting in teaching jobs being taken up by young people who are leftovers from the hiring pools every other industry has rejected. We're leaving kids to be taught by radical ideologues, neurodivergents, and God only knows who else. Until someone starts paying attention to this and we start to fix this, I don't see any hope. All I'm seeing are people with options escaping to home school and private schools.
Teaching used to be a respectable job, if not well-paid. With opportunities abundant now for women, teaching is no longer the only few selected options. The best and brightest women have all abandoned teaching for something else. The gradual deterioration over the decades have finally brought us to the inevitable result.
If people care about their kids, there needs to be a national discussion on how the pipeline for teaching professions must be reviewed and overhauled. It can't be left as the negligible job as it was in the 1950s and 60s, something nice to do for young women from whom society expects little. We need to get young men and women who are much more competent into the profession, pay them better to recruit more quality job applicants, give them better career paths, and revamp the system.
Of course I'm just a nobody shouting into the wind. So things will just plug along and continue to rot.
I'm not speaking from any personal expertise here, but generally I don't think teachers are the problem. Most are good people who care about their students. But they are taught in school, and in turn are required to teach, certain things in certain ways, and the result of that teaching is destructive to our country and our culture. The education profession -- Department of Education, education schools in universities, text publishers, curricula designers, boards of education, everything from top to bottom -- must be ripped out by the roots and reconstructed to teach truth and educate in logic. Howard Zinn, the 1619 project, DEI, critical theory of all sorts, the whole Marxist-inspired, America-hating heart of our education system must go.
While there are good people who are teachers, if you go in TikTok you'll find no shortage of the teachers with blue hair and nose rings broadcasting all the stuff you're talking about entirely on their own without the directions of the school authorities or systems. Be careful not to misgender them btw.
If he isn't in Tel Aviv now and hasn't burnt all their passports; tell him from me he is a feckin' eejit. Silicon Valley is Gehenna.
Once more, with strong feeling: "Never again," the most perishable of pledges.
Folk seem to forget or not know that Isael can reach out and touch us. That Mossad has, can, and will, kill anywhere and anytime, with inpunity, that Israel feels it has to. That 'Jericho III' certainly can bring "Instant Sunshine" to New York; Washington; London; or Paris should the need warrant. I wouldn't blink if they felt they had to "glass" Manchester 8 miles down the road from me. Folk ought to remember that if you sow the wind it is down to you if you reap the whirlwind.
You can't blame young people for believing what they are taught in school.
The seeds of the massacre were planted by those who tried to be peacemakers in this region:
The land for peace that had Israel pull out of Gaza.
Those who thought that Democracy could change the world led to the election of Hamas.
Those who decried the blockade of Gaza as if they were a normal country looking for peace.
I have yet to see an article in the mainstream press about how Hamas was funded and how they would instead build tunnels, buy rockets, and create terrorists. Are the civilians in Gaza complicit in this? I say yes. And throughout history, sadly, those who buy into or support evil have to pay the consequences.
Every person who supports Israel should say this War ends when Hamas surrenders unconditionally. There is no two-state solution. There is no peace partner. There is only total victory, and then, and only then, can Gaza be rebuilt from the ashes. How that gets done is a story for another day, but I am in complete support of destroying Hamas by any means necessary.
💯
Sadly my tax dollars have undoubtedly helped build tunnels and rockets in Gaza. There is Israeli blood on the hands of every American, every European, etc. And our idiot leaders and "diplomats" are hoping to rinse and repeat.
I am sick and damn tired of paying taxes to a corrupt government whose only desire is forever wars and the collapse of the United States.
I find the attachment to Shadi Hamid as a moderate voice and Andrew Sullivan as a keen observer of anything peculiar. Hamid offers a deflection from the reality of the dangers of Islamism and the role of Iran that are drivers of global anti semitism and regional instability in the Middle East. While I respect Sullivan as a thinker, he unfortunately was responsible for promoting much of the Trump authoritarian narrative that distracted many observers from the primary threat of virulent leftism that needs to be combatted more forcefully. They have nothing to offer our threatened West in this moment.
Don't forget Sullivan's obsession with Sarah Palin's womb.
Sadly it’s hard for commentators and “gurus “ to get above their old obsessions. We are in the midst of an acute crisis in the West and these folks have no solutions. I understand the need for viewpoint diversity. But these folks never look back and admit they were wrong.
His unhinged attacks on Sarah Palin's pregnancies as opposed to her politics was the reason why I'm forever skeptical of what he writes. So he gets a few things right now and then. Broken clock ringing twice and all. But he's shown he can go off the deep end.
I have Sullivan, Macaes and Hamid muted on Twitter so I was just as baffled as you by their inclusion.
I’m off Twitter now. Its actually astonishing how the real genocides in Syria and North Africa, the coordinated attacks on the US and Israelby Iran’s proxies, and continuous rampaging in US are never connected by these folks to the Gaza situation. It’s frightening to see see this cognitive breakdown unfold.
Personally I like a breadth of opinions, and I was interested in their perspective. To their discredit, however, the two writers you mentioned did not make a compelling case for their point of view.
Sadly almost all the alternative opinions we here from are those of complete dick-heads and worse. There was some remark that readers had asked for this. I've seen no readers who have asked for anything like the crap they've put up here. This is said everytime - and everytime the commentariat bar 666 responds with brickbats in unison.
Once and for all we are not interested in progressive, liberal, woke, or any other crypto-communist and anti-semitic garbage. TFP needs to cut it the fuck out. We are not interested and we do not want to know; bar a list of those to put against a wall.
At least they didn't try to sell David French.
🤣
Shadi Hamid and Andrew Sullivan live in “lala land”. Some people will be confused forever. Israel is in an existential war for survival of a country and all Jews everywhere. Many read “Mein Kampf” and didn’t believe it till they were murdered. Believe “from river to the sea”!
Shadi made no sense whatsoever.
Tomorrow Joe bidens federal employees will have a walkout for Hamas. OK they won’t say that explicitly but it’s to protest the help for Israel. Same thing
You think any will be fired? Dream on. That only happens if you’re a conservative
I get the impression that Shadi Hamid simply woke up to the fact that his antisemitism is stronger than his leanings toward conservatism.
I don't think he "woke up" to that. It has always been there. It always is with these people. They learn to say the right things at cocktail parties and in the office - but get 'em drunk and they will go off about the heebs and kikes - and how this one money-lender "jewed" him down on Craigslist...
The Silence of the Feminists: This myopia/selective outrage/cognitive dissonance (call it what you will) about the women victims of Hamas is the latest instance of something huge and longstanding: "Early March 2020 saw the publication of a remarkable book on a shamefully neglected subject: the brutality visited on literally millions of civilian women in war zones....... to read her harrowing account of sexual atrocities - in Burma, Syria, Iraq, Nigeria, Ruanda, Bosnia, Bangladesh and elsewhere - is to be brought hard up against a recognition of the huge disconnect that can exist between the gravity of events unfolding around the world and the amount of attention they receive.... some of the atrocities Lamb describes were ongoing in 2017 when Western media attention was suddenly so mesmerised by casting-couch exploitation in the film industry that it seemingly left no emotional capital for anything else." https://grahamcunningham.substack.com/p/life-in-the-shadows-of-metoo
I just linked to the article. Worth reading. I recommend to all. Thank you Graham.
They went silent when Bill Clinton was President and have been silent ever since. Party first.
“ The same actions committed by Russia and Israel—the same propaganda, the same gory videos—are judged differently simply because Israel is one of us and Russia is one of them.”
Hey Bruno, Ukraine didn’t invade and attack Russia as Hamas did Israel. Fundamental difference you seem to have forgotten.
I thought the same thing...I kept wondering how he was making that connection. Maybe he is saying that Israel took their land from the Palestinians like Russia is trying to do with Ukraine? Still not the same, but I can't see a connection otherwise.
I was not interested in either Russia/Ukaine or Israel/Palestine wars. Let 'em get on with it; leave me out and leave our arms and money out. Then I ran into Hamas supporting scum on the same Saturday/Sunday and got learned pdq.
This IS my fight; it is ALL ours' fight.
Russia is 140 million and falling who couldn't fight their way out of a paperbag; the Ummah is 2 billion and rocketing. They can't fight their way out of a paper bag either; but they are dripping in dosh; they invented and have honed over 60 years international terrorism; they honed the suicide bomber; and have been a world-hating death cult for 1400 years.
I'm not interested in fighting them or seeing them dead per se; but they sure as hell are interested in killing me; my family; my friends and anyone else who is Harbi.
I'd be stupid not to reciprocate.
I think the Jews in America and the Israelis are letting the narrative be all about “the poor victim Palestinians”. The useful idiots supporting The Poor Palestinian Victims could use a history lesson. As I type this I know how hard it would be to change their minds. But here’s a thought---
What would the world be like if all the Jews had been exterminated by Hitler in the 1930s? What inventions, medical miracles, scientific discoveries would not have happened? Things that have benefited humankind in innumerable ways would not have been created.
Now ask the same question about Palestinians, or for that matter, Muslims in the ME in general.
The problem with the “oppressor/oppressed dialectic” is that the so called oppressors are also the achievers. We need them.
Been asking that question about Jewish acheivement for as long as I've been aware of "antisemitism." This just in: You can throw in a good-faith estimate of how many Einsteins the National Socialists murdered. They won't listen.
You might start those inventions and other stuff with Descartes and Newton.
A brief comment on Bari’s expose of the “feminists” who have nothing to say about Hamas’s savagery against women and girls:
Their conspicuous silence is because prominent “feminists” are leftist ideologues before they are supporters of female achievement. They hate the Israeli “colonizers” and “oppressors” of Palestinians, therefore they will not call out Hamas for its atrocities.
True feminists would take the side of Riley Gaines against Lia Thomas. They would stand up for the brilliant, uniquely successful female author, J.K. Rowling. They would celebrate the achievements of high-ranking women politicians like Joni Ernst, Kim Reynolds, Elise Stefanik, Marsha Blackburn; but no, those are Republicans, so can’t be acknowledged. Ruth Ginsburg gets vastly more recognition from feminists than does the first female Justice, Sandra Day O’Connor - who was, oops, a Republican. True feminists would embrace motherhood as perhaps the most important role a woman who wants children can fulfill; but modern “feminists” disparage motherhood.
Conservatives have known for a long time that feminist organizations like NOW, NARAL, and even UN Women are really ideological hotbeds of leftism. The primacy of Hamas in Palestine is a leftist cause. Get real: There was no chance that prominent “feminists” would criticize Hamas; any more than they are outspoken about the Taliban’s subjugation of women and girls in Afghanistan, which would obliquely criticize Joe Biden. (Oh, and what about Senator Biden’s alleged molestation of Tara Reade in a Senate office building? Never mind. That went quickly under the rug.)
Anyway … good on Bari for highlighting this issue. “Feminism” is moribund except when promoting a leftist cause.
Feminism is a construct of the radical left. Didn’t use to be, but it sure is now.
On your point, let me add the feminists in Hollywood who did not stand up to Weinstein. For example, I do not believe that people like Meryl Streep did not know what was going on.
And Whoopie Goldberg who even claimed Polanski sexually assaulting a 13yo was not "rape" rape. Literally she was saying the same thing Todd Akin said, like there's "legitimate rape". The left let her off the hook ofc. Meanwhile, he was talking in the theoretical. She was talking about an actual case of rape.
Don't forget Condi Rice, a black woman National Security Advisor. They pretended she didn't exist.
Well said.