Except that Ali’s point was a stronger one. Unless the West wakes up to the Muslim calls for destruction of all (other than Islam), Western civilization will lose this religious war only one side is fighting. And her point that “wokeness” is teaming with Islam to defeat the Judeo- Christian teachings of love, understanding, forgiveness.
Israel is the front lines of this war. But make no mistake about it, it’s coming here to the US. And we better be prepared to fight, as the Israeli’s are currently, otherwise there will be nothing left of who and what we love and believe in.
There is one difference between the U.S. and Israel: Israel was well down the path to disarming its citizens, and it doesn't take a lot of imagination to consider what might have happened on October 7th if those Israelis had been able to quickly lay their hands on a weapon.
It is said that Admiral Yamamoto, having destroyed most of Pearl Harbor, never considered attacking the U.S. directly because there "would be a gun behind every blade of grass." So far we have been able to stave off Israeli-style gun-grabbing by the authoritarians in The Swamp, who fear the armed citizen more than anything else. But those very same swamp-cretins have flooded America with millions of anonymous fighting-age men over the last three years, and when those men mount an assault like the "Palestinians" did on October 7, it will be men like my heavily-armed neighbors who take them down.
I am for the freedom to arm, but won't those millions of anonymous fighting-age men streaming over our borders the last 3 years also have access to guns here? We need controlled immigration. There is an underlying reason these (mostly) men are streaming over our borders, and it is not because they are refugees seeking asylum.
Well, if they are going to get/make firearms illegally then it really doesn't matter if we make gun illegal, does it. It would only harm those who follow the law...you know, the people the government should care about protecting.
‘Tis true. There are far too many in the hands of criminals and mentally ill people. If only we had a legal system that’d put the criminals in jail and remove guns from the unstable.
Rights, and especially Second Amendment rights, also have responsibilities. You have to know what you are doing, and that means train and practice. It is very rare for a thug to win an exchange with a police officer because the officers TRAIN.
Having said that, as a life NRA member and instructor, I'll give the first lesson: never draw into a drop. If the thug has the drop (his gun on you), do NOT draw; do what he tells you. If you are of a mind to shoot him, do something like throwing him your wallet but make sure it goes over his head and draw when he does the natural thing and follows it with his eyes to the ground. That's very risky and don't do it unless you think he will probably kill you.
Very few of the invaders will have training. If you plan to defend yourself, and especially if you conceal-carry, take the time to learn what you are doing or somebody is going to kill you and your family with your own gun.
True dat. We trained our kids too. My son and his new bride love hunting white tails (she bagged 3 herself last season) but if you’re gonna have them around, don’t hide them cause kids are kids, if they understand gun safety and how volatile they can be, they are far less likely to accidentally hurt themselves or others. My husband is the real expert. When we watch movies he shakes his head at the foolishness of how they are portrayed and used. he knows every different kind of firearm, what rounds they use, how to take them apart and everything in between.
I remember your comment, Jim from last year when you were telling how you taught shooting and handling the he gun to the youth.
I don’t remember whether it was after Uvalde tragedy… but we were discussing here in the comments how contemporary youth thinks of guns in terms of video games. And your story showed how it changed perception once one put his or her hands on an actual gun.. I loved that story of yours.
Here in the US, we always seem to beat the drum for rights, but rights are not free. They come with responsibilities. A firearm is a tool - and a deadly tool whose use - and even availability - is a heavy burden. Our gub'ment wants to treat us all like we are children and take away anything that might be dangerous, but the fact is that the gub'ment can't - or more commonly WON'T - and this particular regime doesn't want to - protect us from the predators that are a natural part of all human cultures. Our ancestors faced those dangers every day simply as part of life, and the idea of disarming was laughable.
Now more than ever we must demand our right to self-defense, but we must also demand - and willingly shoulder - the responsibility to train and practice that comes with it. As we say in the South, it ain't play.
I watched a documentary a long while back that said on average only 25% of the WWII soldiers probably only fired at the enemy.
During the Vietnam war training tactics changed from basic target shooting to more human form targets. This change caused a shift that resulted in more soldiers firing directly at enemy combatants. I think this dynamic is amplified by the ever more realistic graphics and scenarios in video games. It may be a catalyst for increased crime but it also may have the unintended benefit of preparing the general citizenry to engage in defense in the case it’s needed.
Let’s hope and pray that it’s never needed but that there are enough ppl who are capable of fighting effectively if and when it does. It sure seems inevitable at times.
You’re right about the immigration problem. It’s not racist to want to be choosy about who gets to become an American here. Lots of other nations have such standards. We all need to push back against the race baiters which seek to manipulate everyone by yelling “racist”.
I could care less what color you are, what you worship(or don’t) but I will say that in the late 1800’s and the early 1900’s, the immigrants from Europe especially, consisted mostly of working class ppl attempting to escape the caste system in Europe. They wanted to BECOME Americans. They weren’t trying to subvert our culture, highjack our government or become a conduit for illegal trade of ppl, drugs or firearms. They were enamored of the notion that it didn’t matter if you were of “noble” birth, only the kind of person you were (character) and if you were willing to work hard. There was no meaningful welfare, no free services or healthcare. You had to earn everything. Now I’m not saying I am against public services, overhauling our ineffective medical system or even welfare benefits for ppl who really need them. There were always soup kitchens and other organizations that tried to feed ppl.
We need common sense reform in just about every aspect of our government, from the feds to local municipalities. There should be no recriminations for expressing ideas that differ from the political party in power, no cancellation or unequal application of laws. When we only enforce laws against certain groups and not so much others then we have lost our country. Sharia law and other laws should never be enforced and if anyone in any subgroup of ppl tries to do so, they should be charged accordingly for any action that conflicts with our laws.
Nobody in their right mind wants to be in a firefight with Federal law enforcement. Ask the Koresh clan, the Bundy's or the Weaver family. In these cases, and most every other of this type, the situation was mishandled and people needlessly died. In foreign policy, billions in weaponry abandoned to the black market in Afghanistan, the Benghazi massacre, the avoidable war in the Ukraine. Etc. Remember, there are thousands of good men and women in Federal service trapped inside the same nightmare as ourselves.
The mask off in your face reality today is the weaponization of law enforcement across Western civilization by the fascist corporatist/"woke" DNC/EU/CCP/WEF/Davos juggernaut. Here in the American Republic the mercenary DOJ and select DNC/Soros political operatives continue to interfere with the electoral process and the willing persecution of anyone and anything that fails to serve the DNC and the new totalitarians of the would be global monarchy. Parents at school board meeting are really terrorists, the kangaroo court Trump persecution, the lie at the drop of a hat MSM, the object lesson called Julian Assange, Hunter's laptop. We don't have enough fingers and toes to count the travesties. Add the desperation of the criminals to maintain political control and the stench of the witches brew is overwhelming. Why their desperation? Because all vampires must loot and feed off the living. The life and freedom of others is the thing they covet most.
"..we the people..." are justified in having legitimate anger at the willingness of APPOINTED political operatives who abandon the objective enforcement of justice in order to serve the political machinations of the political marionettes who inhabit the D.C. hog trough. But we should remember that the darkness inside us is our own and our willingness to carry it is the thing that allows the honest light of truthful freedom to shine.
I don't know if Ramaswamy should or should not be President. I do believe he is attempting to have the honest conversation we are all looking for. The Revolution of 1776 is not over.
It’s never over. Every generation must be willing to fight to keep our freedoms. They are counting on beating us down and keeping us afraid. Biden threatened to employ the full arsenal of our military defenses against anyone/thing that considered any type of revolt.
I’m not advocating a civil war but I want to be at least reasonably prepared in case. There are indicators that any number of situations could arise to cause
EOTWAWKI. This could happen by nature in the form of a massive solar flare that just fried any and all electronics. Most vehicles would suddenly become inoperable. Our financial system would collapse in the span of seconds.
This comment makes me think there's a form of "right-wing intersectionalism". TFP hosts a rather interesting article about religion's purpose - both in Somalia and in the West. The comments go quickly into the realm of talking about gun rights.
I'm not against gun rights -- far from it -- but that's really not *at all* relevant to the article. It's, I imagine, similar to how a left-winger would comment on how climate change marginalizes non-binary people.
The war is fought in our culture, in our institutions, our halls of power, our corporations, our newsrooms, our apps, our managerial-class administrators, our classrooms, our campuses. They won't be coming with weapons. They're coming via mass (mostly legal) migration to overwhelm the indigenous populations of Europe, and "peacefully" take away power. They're coming via social media and woke ideology to control and indoctrinate a generation of American kids. Guns won't help fend these threats off.
"The war is fought in our culture, in our institutions, our halls of power, our corporations, our newsrooms, our apps, our managerial-class administrators, our classrooms, our campuses."
and
"They're coming via social media and woke ideology to control and indoctrinate a generation of American kids."
Totally. From PITT ""Most of the children claim to be some type of queer." When your five year-old comes home from kindergarten and tells you that even though he has a penis, maybe he's a girl, you're living in the Queer Zone."
"Queering" refers not to homosexuality per se, but to acting in ways that subvert and dismantle the foundational norms of society, biological and everything else. It is not a movement that has a stopping point. DIE/Queering/"implicit" bias... It must all be discredited.
Yup. There is a spiritual battle going on at all times. We fight against principalities and spiritual darkness.
Most good essays generate a wealth of commentary and it can go very far afield of the central topic. You must be a natural gatekeeper which is a good thing.
thanks bobbybob! I wondered at that derailment of the commentary- it has basically nothing to do w/ the article, which I found powerful and interesting.
Nothing would have happened. Guns are no substitute for knowledge and common sense. Muslims have been invited into the tent. Nothing about the conquest ideology of Islam was learned on 9/11.
Powerful point. I was not aware of that stance by Yamamoto. I have wondered, how were the residents of the Be'eri Kibbutz not armed with them living so close to Gaza?
That's a good question. One of the kibbutzim was armed and fought them off. I also read about retired army officers who grabbed a pistol and headed toward the fight (maybe in the WSJ). They must have gotten more arms on the way there, but they saved relatives and friends as well. It doesn't hurt to have your own firearms.
Israel should be like Switzerland. The Swiss have universal draft. At 18 you spend 300 days in uniform but are in the reserves until you are 50. You also are required to take your rifle home with you and its ammo.
I hate to rain on your parade, but I spoke to a Swiss MP at the Brexit 'victory' rally in 2018 and he was telling me that miltia principle was being eroded. Joining the UN and putting their trust in "Collective Security" bollocks really began the slide; they are as likely to turn into blancmange as the rest of Western Europe now. If you want to look to anywhere in Europe; look to Poland. Stopped the Ottomans before Vienna; stopped Trotsky on the Vistula. No defensible borders, so they know they need a fuck-off army; unity; and strong government. We weren't there for them last time, and they'll not be fooled again. A much better fit for Israel.
Yup and learn how to use it. I knew about Yamamoto. Americans possess more firearms among its citizens than there are citizens. We sure have quite a few but I rarely tell anyone as it makes your home a target for thieves.
I have heard in separate podcasts this week that one hosts' Jewish friends in Israel are all headed for the US, and that the other hosts' Jewish friends in the US are all buying guns.
Iran will never get to the second part because they will lose IMHO at the first: Israel. The Israelis have waited centuries and endured the unendurable to have their own nation, and they will NOT be overrun, even if it means turning large sections of the Middle East - including Israel if needs be - into a sheet of radioactive glass. Iran is engaging in a suicide cult and they are too blinded by hatred to figure it out.
The Jews have won about 214 of the 965 Nobels awarded over the decades; the Arabs about 15, despite outnumbering the Jews by orders of magnitude. Maybe they should get their goddamned priorities straight and worry more about improving their own lives than extinguishing those of others.
In visiting my sister in NC I visited a retired naval battleship in Willmington. I was amazed at how big it was up close and by the speed at which it was manufactured with ppl trained to operate it. The engines alone were very impressive and took real skill to keep going. We should always be prepared to defend but need can be a powerful impetus too.
In the very, very, very unlikely event (Jesus is more likely to show up first!) of Israel succumbing without firing off all their Jericho missiles in their deathspasms and reducing the Middle East to a radioactive wasteland, I'm pretty sure one 'Ohio' or one CBG could accomplish the same and still have some left over for any other tosspot that wants to try their luck.
Doesn’t it make sense that wokism would find a home in universities and colleges that value the intellect above all else? The only love that can be experienced by a pure intellect is that which comes from the belief that all is subsumed by the intellect and can, therefore control all.
What did I just do there, though? I used “intellect” to define itself and, thereby, created a circular argument.
Love as defined in most religions is based on faith, and faith requires a surrender to something or someone other than the self.
The only thing I’m sure of is that I need more coffee, right now…
Well yeah, because what I think of as the greatest aspects of "the intellect" (reason, logic, etc.) have been jettisoned from "wokism" (critical theory) as just another manifestation of "white dominant culture."
I had my peak-trans moment a LONG time ago, but the peak-"woke" race moment came when they started saying math was white supremacy... Like, how demeaning.
That's surprising, in addition to the comments below, my non-Christian husband has been astounded this week as the members of my church have been dropping by with food for us as I recover from a knee replacement. I didn't even know one couple, but I do now. This is typical of most churches in the country.
Is this based upon your personal experience or are you discounting the prison work, the homeless shelters, adoption organizations, crisis pregnancy centers, alcohol abuse programs, not to mention the work individuals do?
If it is based on your experience with individuals or churches, I understand. Lots of hypocrites out there! But we are all sinners. I think that is where Ali will have her greatest struggle, being tempted to give up on God because of his people! 😯
Yeah, well, that's just your opinion, man. The irony is that this opinion is worth almost nothing, will make you no friends, and strongly savors of bitterness.
The problem with "reason" as a guiding principal is that most people are not smart enough to live that way. So they end up just following someone else who is either charismatic enough or seems smart enough. Which makes it end up being no different than a religion. Except that most major religions have hundreds to thousands of years of successes and failures to weigh its merits. Rationalism is relatively new and changes as facts and info change. So it's moral compass is easier to steer.
For the record, I am not arguing against rationalism. Just that I think there are very few people who follow it that are actually good adherents of it. The rest are either following someone, or use it as an excuse to basically believe whatever they can rationalize to allow them to live the way they want (and many religious people do this too for the record).
Well I’m just impressed that you uncovered your own circular argument (I guess you won that round fair and square) so skip the caffeine cause you don’t need it.
When you get to the point that you don’t understand what you’re saying then yeah, go for the venti latte.
True unconditional love is a state of selflessness. Self serving is our most base nature so where does love come from? Just a natural desire to ensure our prodgeny’s survival? Everyone loves another at some point. We love and value friends like family too.
I think the tough guy love for brothers is fascinating. Very powerful too. Most humans have tenderness and compassion. We would not have survived as a species without it.
You > "There's not much that a good cup of coffee won't fix."
I like coffee (I'm imbibing now) and Johnnie Walker Black (I was lead there by Hitch) as much as the next guy, but really there is not much that either will fix.
I think Ayann is exploring the correct path. Why don't you check it out?
5 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[b] boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
G. Jn. 8:44, Acts 5: 1-11. One is the foundation of anti-semitism; the other of communism. You began with Paul, in whose writings you will only find a hallucinatory Christ and a sect that bears very little resemblance to the Gospel fiction. 1 Cor. 13 is a wonderful piece of writing, but that might be more down to William Tyndale than the original author of the chapter; which is intrusive to the text and probably later than most of the rest. Which parts of 1st Corinthians are actually Paul very much depends on where you fall on what Paul originally taught. There is no scholarly consensus.
Leaving aside the debate whether the reasons they moved away from Christianity is good or not, the problem is what did they move to? The point she's making, which many of us recognize for quite some time now, is a large swathe of people don't move to some higher level of intellectual existence. They move to different kinds of fanaticism with no moral core or anchor. Many are and have been behaving like village idiots, literally speaking as in villages in the Dark Ages, and causing serious harms and destabilizing our societies. It's like they're back to the Dark Ages when people first discovered religion, pre-Christianity.
Actually the Dark Ages were the same time period as the Middle Ages. They occurred with the fall of Rome about 416 AD to the beginning of the Renaissance. They were not pre-Christian.
Yeah, you make a good point here, QX. While Christianity may seem a little lacking today, there isn't much good to say about our secular society today, perhaps most exemplified by "keeping up with the Kardasians." Those of us longing for a better world are really caught between a rock and a hard place.
Might be a bit late for you: but less longing; more rolling up our sleeves and building that better world ourselves. No bugger else is going to do it for us.
Jesus though did relate the parable that a shepherd will leave the flock to save a lost sheep.
One persons awakening is cause for rejoicing.
God gives us all the right to free will. You can choose to reject or have faith and if faith is chosen, you can elect the faith/path that best speaks to your heart. It is for this reason that no man should take it upon himself to impose faith and particularly religion, upon another. Religion is mostly an invention of man. The Bible does give a framework to establish what that could look like but we are all flawed and think our own understanding should override what too many view as an improper application. This doesn’t cover the wealth of posers either but that is why God alone gets to judge. Only He can see into your heart. Well, I hope this lady has found an inner peace that will carry her spirit home one day.
Apart from Islam, a Judeo-Xtian "heresy", our other problems are? Almost to a man Xtian "heresies". Pie-in-the-sky, jam tomorrow, complete with "New Jerusalem", Xtianities without "God", the supernatural, the Eschaton or the Rapture. Full circle to the "This World" Judaism of the "Saducees".
Do you REALLY want that hate-filled flavour to win out? Not much more than a cigarette paper between the backwards, bigoted, flavours of African Xtianity and Islam. The Middle East all the Xtians are dead or fled from. How does that work?
Yeah I don’t really understand that one myself. Doubters gonna doubt, haters gonna hate. If the Bible is taught in the spirit in which it is written, it is a message of love and devotion. Children rebel at authority and are rash. Adults should understand that God only desires that we return His love and love one another.
Unfettered indulgence isn’t love. Sometimes we don’t get what we want when we want it and sometimes it’s what’s in our best interest, even if we can’t see that.
Who sullied which Christian tradition exactly? Christians burning people all over the world for centuries upon centuries have done enough sullying themselves.
It was actually the acceptance of Darwin’s theory of evolution that cinched the ridiculous argument that black Africans were less “evolved”. The transition from a largely illiterate population to the majority having at least a fifth grade education but not a strong understanding of science made it easy to manipulate many to have what might have sounded like a rational idea. Preachers especially should have taught the truth about the word of God which did not commiserate with the bigoted, foolishly misconstrued teachings that even today are cherry picked passages used to support predetermined and distorted points.
Absolutely. Now the bigger denominations are rolling back on what clearly is defined as abominable behavior in scripture lest their pews be vacant and coffers empty.
Greed is still entrenched in too many Christian organizations.
Those who lead others astray for lust of gold or flesh will indeed rue the day they did so.
I agree. Conversion is needed. However, I also harp on a key point she makes, the empty secularism that refuses to speak straight to the lies that are islam. Nobody says: Mohammed was not a prophet! He was a Jim Jones psychopath. He taught his followers slaughter, assassination, murder, rape, and torture. His creed is demonic, straight from the depths of hell, turning followers into monsters. This needs to be said. It is not a religion at all, but a monstrous murder cult that turns the concept of every other religion upside down.
We must be able to look clearly and say, "No! That?! That is evil incarnate, demonic in its purpose, lies from top to bottom. Demonic in its history from inception to today."
I am not a Christian, but I recognize Christianity as a true religion. People are what we are, but Christianity, Buddhism, Advaita, etc., are true in their doctrines. Islam stands alone, a blood soaked horror doctrine. Islam's hatred of jews is founded on spite, not any sort of god, because jews rightly laughed at him when he demanded to be recognized as prophet.
This must be said, clearly. Islam is not a legitimate religion. Point to everything Islam lionizes, believes and does.
Great point! Most will freely criticize Christians, but rare is the person who stands up to the followers of Islam. Ali is a unique woman!!
Jesus said, Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Because in those days, Muslims knew how to use Jewish and Christian brains. When Aleppo and Alexandria and Beirut and Damascus were multicultural, they flourished. Now they're dumps.
When Muslims expelled or murdered their Jewish and Christian neighbors, they had nothing left but Islam, and Islam is not conducive to the intellect or to commerce or that something that makes great cities.
What? That’s just ludicrous. The early Catholic Church actually supported scientific discovery and taught that God gave us great intellect to USE it. The flat earthers were pagans. The book of Job, the first book believed to have been written, described the earth “as an orb in the sky”.
And you’re correct. Mohammed highjacked the inheritance of the Hebrews, rewrote their Torah and returned the inheritance to Ismael and Esau. If anyone ever fulfilled the description of the antichrist it was Mohammed.
Ignorant ppl want to compare the spread of Christianity to Islam but there’s no comparison. Jesus instructed his disciples to go out to preach the good news, if they encountered ppl who would not receive their words they were to rise, shake the dust from their clothes and walk away. Not slay them, not force their compliance or even write them down for it.
If Mohammed was actually visited by an entity that gave him instructions then he got hoodwinked big time. If he devised it himself he was devilishly clever and more evil than any other person in human history. Since I see it as a false doctrine I guess it doesn’t matter to me but damn, I cringe when I hear the very naive things ppl say.
The political correctness police though require nothing but respect for Islam, excuse it’s very violent doctrine and misrepresent everything about it. I don’t believe all Muslims to be evil or bad ppl. I know some who are kind and generous.
I have followed the career of Ayaan Hirsi Ali from the moment she became a household name when her friend Theo van Gogh was murdered by an Islamist for the film "Submission." She has been a fighter for human rights and a voice of warning these many years. Persons with her fortitude are needed now more than ever.
Ayaan has indeed been extremely courageous and a steady beacon standing in the way of, basically, Muslim religious tyranny. One would think the meaning and the purpose of her life, chosen by her and so clear to the rest of us in our opinion of her, is obvious.
And yet it is belied by the sentence she wrote below:
'Atheism failed to answer a simple question: What is the meaning and purpose of life?'
I think the God she seeks may already be within her.
If it is within her it is not worthy of her worship. Only a god outside of ourselves, not made up by our self is worthy of worship. Otherwise we are only worshipping ourselves and we know we are flawed.
Well said. Ppl today seem to think they create God. To that I say”go in a restroom and take a good look in the mirror cause if you define God then the person you see in the mirror is your God”. Oh that gets ppl mad. But it’s true. If you truly want to know God then any God by definition is an entity that is specifically NOT of your own design.
Ayaan, in 2015 I shared my conversion testimony from atheism to Christianity with you, calling you my atheist sister. Welcome to the flock my Christian sister. God bless you and I pray that He keeps on guiding you every step of the way.
Christians everywhere are rejoicing. Welcome, Ayaan, into the congregation of the faithful who know Jesus and his message of love and forgiveness. I pray that word of your conversion starts a wave of Muslims bravely abandoning Islam and becoming followers of Jesus Christ.
Truth. And the greatest enemy of the Jews is radical Islam. And therein lies what America refuses to face. "Tolerance" of radical Islam is a suicide pact for our nation.
And the greatest enemy to America is the far left wing radical, woke cabal of the Democrat Party that will not denounce Tlaib, Omar, AOC, Omar, Pressely, etc.
D gutless wonders that blame America's destruction on Trump, rinos, & abortion.
There are no two ways to diagram our spiraling downfall into a socialist abyss.
No. Tolerance of any islam. The doctrine itself, all of it, was born bankrupt. There is no "good islam". There is, at best, Islam that says, "That was a long time ago. We don't do that anymore." I have read exactly that fatwa --- it's a direct quote.
And our US foreign policy, backing islamists in Syria, literally backing al qaeda and ISIS there. Before that, we came in on the side of the KLA, Osama bin Laden's army conducting ethnic cleansing in Serbia. Before that, Carter backed islamists in Afghanistan - before Russia invaded, with the goal of causing invasion. This foreign policy of deals with the devil must stop. It must be repudiated.
So what of all the Muslims whose families have been in the U.S. for generations, living and working in peace with others? Shall we shun them, or persecute them? Shall we round them up and intern them, as suspected enemies?
If we did that, how would one get good falafel in Ann Arbor?
To be serious, though, I grew up in a region with a concentration of Muslim immigrants from Syria and Lebanon; I went to high school with some of them, and counted one of them as a friend. There's even a mosque sitting out in the midst of cornfields, not far from where I grew up, alongside the junction of interstate highways.
If you're really going to press the case that Islam is inherently, irredeemably corrupt, you're going to have to say something about the status of those communities.
The dilemma comes in when defense contractors stop making billions to supply endless war. I think peace through strength is a rational position but yeesh, the destruction of not just human life but of all living things is imperiled by war. How the climate change cultists rationalize bankrolling the war in Ukraine is bizarre. They actually talked about making an all EV tank. It’s imperative that we don’t cause Co2 to escape into the air while we bomb the living s**t out of the earth! It’s so stupid it’s funny. If I hadn’t heard it on the news I would have thought it like an old SNL skit like when it was funny. Yeah that ship sailed at least 15 yrs ago.
So is tolerance (and forced acceptance) of DEI, CRT and all the nonsense it espouses. What is happening all throughout the western world is evil to the core and sadly mimics the cultural war in communist China. We either get this wrecked version of society turned around like now or we can kiss any semblance of individual liberty / freedom goodbye.
Free Julian Assange. Forgive Snowden. Time to start speaking truth about the military industrial complex, the medical industrial complex and the MSM lies.
Gordon, I wish that most Jews felt the same way. Unfortunately, many are still stuck in the early 20th century, and further back to the 5th century, when many Christian leaders accused Jews of "killing Christ". Today, no one that I know subscribes to this stupid accusation. The real fact is that there are many evangelical Christians who support Israel and have affection for their Jewish brethren. True, some of the mainline Christian denominations have taken the secular view of Israel as a violator of human rights, but they are a minority that the Media has chosen to highlight. Take heart! The reality trumps the narrative.
Many Jews in the US are only cultural Jews and openly despise formal religion. They think (along with many types) that they have evolved beyond it and that only the weak minded are faithful.
That’s true. Bible thumping Christian’s in America are Israel’s biggest supporters.
Yeshua was a faithful Jew, he didn’t come to start a new religion, He came as the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham that God would eventually supply the only real sacrifice for atonement. Until the end of the first century AD, there were more Hebrew followers than gentile.
In the last 10+ years I have read stories of The Spirit (That would be the 3rd Person of the Trinity for you non believers) has been Making A Move in Islam. Millions of Muslims becoming Followers Of Jesus.
European churches say growing flock of Muslim refugees are converting
A growing number of Muslim refugees in Europe are converting to Christianity, according to churches, which have conducted mass baptisms in some places.
Reliable data on conversions is not available but anecdotal evidence suggests a pattern of rising church attendance by Muslims who have fled conflict, repression and economic hardship in countries across the Middle East and central Asia.
"But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Didn’t see your comment, but apparently we heard the same thing!
I know people who live in France that work with refugees and they have numerous church sprouting up in France that all like 90% Iran refugees/migrants.
Sadly some of it is false data. Muslims have no problem lying to us Kefirs (non believers), especially to Christians. They lie in any situation to get what they want. They say they’re converting to Christianity and so acquire the status of religious persecution to be granted asylum.
I think it could be both/and. Certainly there are some that are ingenuous and maybe they inflated whatever estimates we have. But I also personally know people who live and work with Irani refugees and they can attest to many who have sincere faith.
Steve on this thread thinks I don’t know what I’m talking about. He/she doesn’t know my background in the Middle East. I lived there for 10 years. It doesn’t make me an expert, not by any means, but I do have some inside knowledge. Like knowing a PHD co-worker who secretly said he wanted to leave the faith but couldn’t because his own family would kill him. That’s just one story of many.
So when Muslims deny their religion imposes their faith, it does say in the qu’aran it’s not compulsory, or will lie in the name of their faith, they conveniently overlook the fact its adherents do coerce people and lying is encouraged if it promotes the faith. In Pakistan, as one example of coercion, men abduct young Hindu girls and force them into marriage to Muslim men. Where’s the global condemnation of this by Muslims. I don’t hear much condemnation of any of this religions heinous acts.
By the way, most Iranians are different in many ways to Arabic speaking, or even non-Arabic speaking Muslims (who are considered lesser Muslims by Arabic speaking Muslims). Iranian citizens are well educated and civilized. It’s their leadership and a certain percentage of their population who are deranged in pursuit of power through their religion. If Iranians say say they’ve converted to Christianity I might have an easier time believing them.
I know because I lived and worked and my children went to school in the Middle East for 10 years!
I know so many Muslims I’ve lost count. Good and bad ones and everything in between. Want names?
And I don’t need to look up Taqiyya because I know the “word/concept” very well. But explain to me why I shouldn’t bring it up? Are you Sunni perhaps?
And I know their (maybe your) religion “makes them different” because it is a religion of submission. It is a religion that claims it is the absolute last word on religion. It is a religion that looks down its nose if you don’t read its one and only book in its language of Arabic, a language that barely anyone in the world reads or speaks. And ultimately if you don’t submit to this religion you are to be enslaved or killed.
It is a religion that does not have “Suicide Bombers”, that’s a Western construct. No, it has only “Martyrs”. And its martyrs are very, very many around the world who go around terrorizing innocents in the name of this “Religion of Peace.” And millions of the adherents to this religion feign horror at the killings, all the while at worst applauding, and at best saying “InshaAllah.
So please, you do some research, you seem to be willfully ignorant and sound like you did not even read the article written by Ms Ali. Try again, yallah!
Could the fact that such converts tend to show up dead have anything to do with the lack of data? Wishful thinking, perhaps, but I find this more likely than the "moderate Muslim" chimera. (Though the latter have the same ending-up-dead-if-identified problem.)
Many have to hide, because even if they won’t be killed, there could be kicked out of their homes, disowned by their families, could lose their jobs, or be despised by their communities. Even in European counties, there is great community pressure against anyone converting away from Islam.
OR they keep a low profile. Remember in Islam being an Apostate is worse than being an Infidel.
"moderate Muslim" chimera...And just how many Muslims do you know? Understand there is no ONE Islam. Thee s a War inside Islam, we can go back to the 900's, but lets keep it in more modern times, 1925 and the founding of Muslim Brotherhood. Broadly speaking 2 schools of thought. 1. We'll call them The Fundamentalists. They want to return to (say) 700ad, They believe war (violence) is they way to convert The World. The Other "Moderates" who while remaining True to the Faith, want to adjust to the modern world, and convert it by The Way they live. For every Infidel the the Jihadists kill they kill 10 Muslims.
I can recommend some books/people (none of which are Robert Spencer).
Yes I just hope she is coming to actually follow Jesus, and not turning to some “spirituality” that only thinks of Jesus of a good teacher, but fails to worship him as the Son of God. As spot on as her article is, it’s hard to discern from this writing alone if she follows Jesus, or some water-down Christian “spirituality” that has become prevalent in the West.
Yes I read the article. It’s not gatekeeping to say “this is what Christianity is” and “this is what it is not.” There are basic tenets to Christianity and if you don’t believe them, that’s ok, but then you aren’t really a Christian. Call it whatever you like, but don’t claim the name of Christianity.
So yeah, believe whatever you want to believe, but don’t redefine something. If you don’t believe Jesus is God, then you aren’t a Christian. If you don’t believe Mohammed is a prophet, then you aren’t a Muslim. If you don’t believe in God at all, the you may be an atheist of some variety. This isn’t gatekeeping. Anyone can be a Christian, it’s open to anyone from anywhere at anytime. But there are definitions and basic main tenets to what qualifies as the Christian faith. (Same is true of atheism I might add! You can’t believe in God and be an atheist.) And mudding the waters on this issue deceives people.
What would you call someone who wants to follow the teachings of Jesus, support and defend Christian values, etc., but deep inside doesn’t necessarily think about God in the same way? Jews don’t exclude people like this, and neither do Christian/Catholic churches, school boards, etc., in real life. The whole point of the article is that religion, and the social/cultural unity it fosters, is a positive force that the West needs to tap back into... to turn around and say “yes but only if they adhere to it this way...” is completely counter to that.
First, Jesus taught himself that he is the Son of God and the only way to God. So if you don’t believe he is God, then you are not really following his teachings are you?
Second, if Jesus is not God, then he is a liar because he claimed to be. So is it good to follow the teachings of a liar? No.
There are lots of secondary issues (not salvation issues) that Christians can disagree on and still be in the same boat, if you will. For example, some infant baptism versus adult or “believer’s” baptism.
However, the MAIN thing that makes Christianity what it is, is the belief that Jesus was both God and man, that he came to earth and lives a perfect sinless life, that he died the death we all deserve on the cross, and was raised to life three days latter, defeating death and allowing for reconciliation between God and man, such that anyone who puts their trust in Jesus can be forgiven of their sins and have eternal life with God.
If you don’t believe this, you simply are not a Christian. Call it something different.
I can’t speak to the Jewish religion, except to say that many modern Jews don’t actually follow the teaching of their faith. They can still call themselves Jewish though, because it’s an ethnicity in addition to a religion. Christianity does not have the same ethnic tie.
Christian schools and para-church organizations tend to not require people to affirm what they believe in order to participate and that’s probably ok. However, many churches have requirements that you confirm certain beliefs in order to become a member/partner. Anyone is welcome to attend, but if you join as a member/partner then you affirm that church’s statement of faith, and commit to not teaching anything counter to that on minor issues you may disagree on. But if I went to a church and said, “hey I want to be a partner/member here but I don’t believe that Jesus is the Son of God,” then they would tell me “um, sorry, no.”
There are some mainline denominations that allow this, but these are progressive Christian churches that have completely fallen away from what the Bible teaches, and again, they can believe what they want, but it’s not historic Christianity and they need to own it as such and start calling it something different.
Mostly, I am not disputing the social/cultural unity that religion fosters. But I am hoping that the author is coming to true, historic Christianity, and not some counterfeit. I hope that for her sake.
But also, the key here is that it’s not just ANY religion that she argues the West needs. Because Islam unites people socially and culturally, but look what it has produced. So, yes, there is a sense in the argument that practicing Christianity needs to be true to its core tenets, historic traditions, and its Scripture, and not just some wish-washy believe whatever feels good, because it’s the truth of Christianity and its core tenets that gives rise to the Judeo-Christian values that has made Western civilization so great and successful.
Indeed, the folks that practice progressives Christianity and have fallen away from seeing Jesus as the Son of God tend to be some of the folks that have helped ushers in the insanity of woke ideology!
A religion needs a standard, otherwise it can morph into anything— without a standard, what’s stopping “Christianity” from morphing into something more violent like Islam? The standard for Christianity is the Bible. Unlike Islam, who forces people to “believe the right way,” Christians say, “let’s look to the standard, let’s look at the Bible to see what we should be doing. If we disagree on something, let’s study the Bible together and see what we find.”
So yes, I am concerned about people who call themselves Christians but don’t actually believe in Jesus or the Bible. Because that doesn’t make any sense, and it confuses those who don’t know or understand Christianity.
I am not trying to cause more division, but just call attention to the fact that I see this fake, progressive Christianity that isn’t really Christianity as part of the problem of the West’s “losing its religion” so to say.
Agree to disagree. Religion needs to adapt with the times, more so the other way around... “the times” are a much stronger social /cultural force than Christianity (especially strict versions), is in the West today, so “taking what we can get” is the only pragmatic solution. You are of course free to push for whatever version, but I think your attitude will only continue the decline.
Fred - you are arguing with a person who, quite sincerely, thinks that the lesson of the gospels is "accept the true doctrine" and you will belong to the Kingdom of God. The entire institutional messaging of the churches to which they belong is built on cheap grace. They have been taught relentlessly to say and believe the One True Thing, as if that was the message of God. The Muslims do the same thing.
It is the very essence of what Jesus warned them about, but they cannot see it. Jesus repeatedly and emphatically demanded something deeper and higher and orders of magnitude more difficult. It may be good news, but it's not easy news. I wouldn't want to hear it if I was a Christian. I don't blame it on them but on the church itself, which always call on the individual to abase himself before God but rarely if ever does so itself.
Thanks Chris for the great comment, and for carrying on the discussion better than I could. KB’s is a frustrating attitude that no doubt turns people off and away before they’ve even walked in the door.
Chris, you greatly misunderstand me. The main lesson of the Gospel is that Jesus was God, came to Earth as God-man, lived a perfect life that we all should have lived (but failed because of sin), dead on the cross in our places and was Resurrected to conquer death and forgive our sins such that whoever puts their trust in Jesus can be reconciled to God. If there is anything that is the “One True Doctrine” it’s this. You simply cannot be Christian if you don’t accept this central claim to what Christianity believes. That’s not cheap grace, that is the requirement outlined by God himself of what we need to do to be saved. Faith alone, no works, by grace alone. But you can’t have faith unless you know what you are putting your faith into-- you have to know who Jesus is in order to trust him. So if you don’t believe He is God, and it turns out to be reality that He is God, then you didn’t believe who He said he was. That’s not trust.
Yes, I do believe Scripture is the message of Gospel. But here’s the key thing apart from Muslims. Can Muslims prove their text reliable? Christians have been for centuries questioning then Scriptures, analyzing, studying, many people have tried to “disprove it” as the Word of God only to find themselves converted and believing it to be true! The preponderance of evidence that indicates that the Bible is a reliable document is overwhelming. The Quran does not have that.
But my point was mainly that you there ARE definitions to things and doctrines you must accept to be included as a believer in that religion. Yes this is like Islam. But no one seems to question these definitional requirements when talking about Islam, or Buddhism, or atheism. But all of a sudden, when it comes to Christianity, everyone cries: “How dare you have a definition! How dare you have doctrine!”
It’s just silly. Every system of believe has doctrine that defines what the believes are. Take evolution-- the theory of evolution even has doctrine! If you believe in evolution, then you must believe in certain things that build up the case for evolution, you believe the evidence for it. You can’t say “well I don’t believe any of the scientific evidence for evolution, because I am against doctrine, but I believe in evolution.” That’s just doesn’t make sense. Doctrine is simply a way for a group defining what it is that it believes. And just like it’s perfectly reasonable for the “Women’s Astology Club of Mayberry” (I’m making that up, btw) to say that you can’t join their club unless you believe and practice astrology, it’s perfectly reasonable to have definition of belief in religions. If you don’t believe in the Gospel, you are more than welcome to be a church attender, but you can’t call yourself a Christian. And it makes sense to say so.
Jesus also warns about false teachers, so it’s clear he cared about right doctrine too. That’s why elders are appointed in the church- it’s their job to guard the doctrine.
Yes, I take your point. If you are going to be a Christian, the first thing you MUST do, is commit to Christ. She does not talk about this. Yet this is the first thing she should be talking about. Maybe next year she will become something else.
This is a pragmatic reason to adopt Christianity, which is a good start. But ultimately, Christianity isn't a religion of pragmatic rules and ethics to improve your life or society. It isn't a religion at all, whereby one earns salvation through righteous living. It's primarily good news that Jesus Christ lived the perfect life we couldn't and paid the penalty of our sin, so we wouldn't. It's the trust and celebration of what Christ did on our behalf -- that we are free from having to "earn it." And all of those pragmatic benefits to society come as a result of that freedom.
Ayaan referenced the book, “Dominion” by Tom Holland. He too was an atheist but has become a Christian. Have you read it? I have. Holland’s main point is the teachings of Jesus were revolutionary. We think the way we think, even about ordinary things, because Jesus changed humanity. The poor are just as worthy in God’s eyes as the rich, there is equal value in all lives. Foregiving those who hurt us, loving the sinner (hating the sin), taking care of the least among us. Doing unto others as you would have done unto you. The Greeks and Romans didn’t think this way. Today, even atheists believe in these ideas. They believe in Jesus’ teachings while denying his divinity or even existence. We Christians smile to ourselves over this.
Which is why John Adams said, “Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” Morality and virtue are the foundation of our republic and necessary for a society to be free. This notion animated our Founders and was enshrined in our society until the left began tearing it asunder. I am not particularly religious but I respected and understood that bedrock principle.
One of my favorite quotes. And very pertinent. We have been seeing, over the last couple of decades, what government becomes in the absence of morality and religion. In blue strongholds, people commit crimes with little fear of punishment, because immoral government makes excuses for them.
And because our form of government doesn't - or at least, didn't - prescribe the way citizens should lead their lives and comport their business in the way that other governments do. Yet now our land is planted think with laws and regulations, yet there is more lawlessness than ever. Whether the destruction and denigration of religion was deliberate or not, the chaos spawned is palpable.
It was deliberate. Marxism--which lies at the root of all of this--disavows all religious beliefs. Although they've temporarily made common case with Islam, because both groups despise Western civilization.
And the immorality of those who commit crimes demonstrates the truth of Adams' remark. God help us because we are rapidly losing the moral and religious part of our citizenry.
'Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.'
Fear is generally not a good reason to become a Christian. Of course you know that Isaac Newton was a Christian as was CS Lewis. Lewis became a Christian though reason.
One of my all time favorite quotes. This country started out with the most freedom ever and without some morals it gets out of hand quickly. That is where we are now. Some people can't handle the responsibility of a lot of freedom. In modern times they want other peoples help to run their lives. The government comes in and everyone loses freedom. The US was founded on individual rights and taking care of ourselves. Not completely. That is what communities are for. The far left are talking group rights now and it won't work. The further we get away from individual right, the further away we will get from freedom. Once gone, it will not come back.
One of my favorite quotations comes from Jean-Jacques Rousseau, whose writings were also very influential in the founding of this nation. This from Book Four of The Social Contract:
"But I’m wrong to speak of a Christian republic—those two terms are mutually exclusive. Christianity preaches only servitude and dependence. Its spirit is so favourable to tyranny that it always profits by such a régime. Genuine Christians are made to be slaves, and they know it and don’t much mind: this short life counts for too little in their eyes."
A bit later, he tempers this . . . a little:
"tolerance should be given to all religions that tolerate others, so long as their dogmas contain nothing contrary to the duties of citizenship. Anyone who ventures to say: ‘Outside the Church is no salvation’ should be driven from the state."
In an especially tone-deaf move, religious authorities in Paris issued warrants for Rousseau's arrest, after the publication of the Social Contract and another of his works, and he was driven from the state.
One of my favorite quotes from CS Lewis, an intellectual if there ever was one: "A man who is eating or lying with his wife or preparing to go to sleep in humility, thankfulness and temperance, is, by Christian standards, in an infinitely higher state than one who is listening to Bach or reading Plato in a state of pride."
Christ gives us hope and peace that is "beyond all understanding." We don't have to prove our worth or work our way into His good grace - it's a gift.
He addresses that aspect of religion separately, referring to it as the religion of the priest. Here, he's talking about Christianity at its cultural core, its essence, as a dogma embraced by individuals.
"Christianity preaches only servitude and dependence. Its spirit is so favourable to tyranny that it always profits by such a régime. Genuine Christians are made to be slaves, and they know it and don’t much mind: this short life counts for too little in their eyes."
Where did he come up with this patent drivel? Slaves? To what? The Christian churches in America were the wellspring of our Revolution.
I liked this book, it was very interesting, but I don't think Tom Holland is a practicing Christian (yet, I hope). He was raised a Christian, and he does not hide the fact that his ethics and moral principles are Christian, but I don't think he believes that Jesus is the Son of God and has committed his life to following Him (yet, and again, I hope!).
I used to say I was agnostic, but in RIP (holdover actually) in a discussion with the NCO cadre, they said to own the fact that you don't believe in God so now I say I'm atheist. Even without faith in God, I can't fault the ten commandments or what the church teachings are about how to live a moral life. That said, I was raised Roman Catholic, so my family still thinks I'm going to hell....
I am a lapsed Catholic myself, still searching for my spiritual home. I hold a strong belief in God, just wish I could find a church community that feels like a fit.
I was a lapsed Catholic and then my teenage son decided to join the Catholic Church (which was surprise to me and his Jewish dad). However, we are now all going to Sunday mass because the church we belong to is so wonderful--- the community so diverse-- and I'm loving the traditional music. It has changed my family in so many significant ways-- just kneeling and praying each Sunday. Keep searching, you will find a place where you belong.
Find some fervent Catholics and find out their parish. Or ask a prominent conservative Anglican or Protestant to refer you to the strongest Catholics they know.
UPDATE: Or post your city here and ask for recommendations.
I have friends with the same problem; Their previous church 1) obeyed our blue state governors mandates and didn't give them a physical place to worship during the plandemic and 2) got a new pastor who embraced the notion of "woke" and letting people "choose" who they want to be. It was a very hard struggle for them to find a new community that hadn't changed their beliefs to accommodate society.
Woke is antithetical to Christianity, because Wokeism is based on moral relativism, whereas Christianity is based on fixed moral principles. Take a look at Obama’s recent statement on the Israel/Hamas war: it is replete with “both-sidesism” (i.e., moral relativism).
Chris - the "church" as it were, is run by humans and thereby ultimately flawed. However, there are hundreds of fantastic churches out there that will bring you in, love you and treat you like a brother. You'll be part of a community that has your salvation as its highest priority!
I am a lapsed catholic too because the catholic church itself lapsed. I have sworn off organized religion altogether. After 2000 years I believe they are all corrupt. I decided to live my life as closely as I can to Jesus teachings and to be the best person I can be. When I die, we will see what happens lol.
It was a Cosmos, by Carl Sagan, that contained this sentiment, but I'm sure I'm not quoting it exactly, "An agnostic is just an athiest without the courage of his convictions." But the dialog went on after that point, and genuinely defended the position of agnostics. Reading that was, believe it or not, an important step on my faith journey.
In retrospect, that was likely the singular most important conversation I had in my life. After the Army, whether at school or work, it taught me to ask questions when I didn't know something or was unsure of the answer. It also taught me that more respect was afforded when I had the courage of my own convictions and stood firm on those beliefs. I still don't know if there is a God, but I don't believe there is. I've told friends many times that they are lucky they have FAITH - that they "know" there is a reward for them in the afterlife.
Unless he has announced a change recently, Tom Holland is an atheist and a “cultural Christian”, meaning he believes that Christianity as a historical force permeates the Western worldview, including Enlightenment values. Christians who believe in an existent God of course assert you can’t have Western values without the literal truth of Christianity. Holland has said, we don’t know yet. There are open and prosperous nations that are non-religious, such as Scandinavian countries and Japan. Whether their experience can be replicated other places is unknown.
Not meaning to pick a fight, but those teachings you reference above are all straight out of Torah, what you would call the "Old Testament", and part of Jesus's basic education as a Jew.
The dissemination of those Jewish values to the wider world through the vehicle of Christianity has sometimes obscured the source material, but let's give credit where it's due.
"Turning the other cheek" can safely be said to be his innovation. We have a lot of source material to the value of humility, and "vatranut" or giving in, certainly to accepting insult without responding, but we draw the line at being physically attacked, which is where it becomes a mitzva to defend ourselves.
Your point about atheists is well taken - in a society built on what many call Judeo-Christian ethical principles, atheists can indulge in their luxury beliefs without too much consequence. But once those principles are so undermined and young people not raised with them, then all bets are off.
In my opinion, Christianity deemphasized the 613 rules of the Torah and offered salvation to the Greeks, Romans, anyone. Paul and the other disciples spread out all over the world, seeking to bring many to Jesus.
I don’t remember the citation, but there is a place where Jesus spoke of all food being clean for consumption. I also can’t recall any time Jesus spoke of Mary Magdelene being unclean and needing to isolate herself. You see my point about all those rules obscuring the 10 Commandments and the golden rule.
"But ultimately, Christianity isn't a religion of pragmatic rules and ethics to improve your life or society." Au contraries'! Christianity at its best is summed up in two profoundly pragmatic and efficacious rules: "Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself." This is a restatement of Hillel the Great's reduction of Judaism to a non-Jew, famously: "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation of this—go and study it!"
That's not a summation of Christianity; that's a summation of the Law (see Matthew 22:36-40). The summation of Christianity is that mankind (which is in a fallen state of sin) can never perfectly keep the Law, which is why Jesus' life, death and resurrection were necessary.
No Jew ever asserted a Jew could keep the Law either. That's a strawman. Everything Jesus demonstrated is in the Torah, handed down to modern time in the Oral Torah redactions.
There's a famous question about the Jew and the Torah: "Does the Torah keep the Jew or does the Jew keep the Torah?" For brevity sake, the conclusion is the Torah keeps the Jew.
The atoning work of Christ's death and resurrection is Christianity's unique, foundational truth-claim; certainly the truth to Christian believers. At the same time, Jesus asserted in Matthew 5 that heaven and earth would pass away before the smallest letter of the Torah would be removed -- so since the earth is still here, the Torah is still here and absolutely in effect. In fact, better a millstone be tied around the neck of anyone who taught otherwise and be thrown into the sea. So whatever the atonement of Christ accomplished, it did not abolish the Law (the Written Torah) or the Prophets (the Oral Torah -- where we get the teachings of a Messiah and the resurrection, for example). This is not the place, of course, to carry on this sort of thread, wishing you all the best.
We both agree that the Law is still in effect. Jesus basically said there are two ways someone can be saved from God's wrath: 1) keep the law perfectly yourself [Matthew 19:16-22], or 2) rely on God to do this for you [Matthew 19:23-26] through Jesus [John 14:6].
In Romans 1-3, Paul meticulously spells out why the first way is impossible for us (as you've also said Jews believe). Which leaves us with the second option.
I do think that, on an article about someone's conversion to Christianity, a discussion of what Christians believe is apropos. Happy to discuss further.
Someone explained it to me as simply: The law says do not kill, steal, commit adultery, etc. Jesus took the law further and concerns the heart- do not want to kill, do not want to steal, do not want to commit adultery.
Oh, how terribly our own country has failed with just these 3 of God’s laws.
Even further than wanting to commit adultery— if you look upon another with listing your heart, you have transgressed the law and sinned.
Yes, the Jews of Jesus’s day followed the letter of the law but not always the heart or spirit of the law. Jesus asks MORE of us, not less. He asks us to follow the spirit of the law.
Problem is, we can’t do this because our hearts are wicked and deceitful above all things. Our sin nature makes even our “good works” or following the letter of the law (“well I didn’t technically lie… I didn’t technically steal….etc.) essentially dirty and unrighteous.
That’s why Jesus’s atonement on the cross matter so much. He takes the payment of sin upon himself so that we can be remade under His righteousness. We can receive hearts that then want to follow God’s law. Until Christ returns again, or we meet him in Heaven, we will still grapple with this sin nature. But the good news is that whatever parts of our heart that still desire sin, we can repent and be forgiven, knowing that Jesus paid the penalty of our sin under the Law and that God can now look upon us as “righteous.”
I couldn't agree more with your reply. How terribly I have personally failed at these, as well! Thanks be to God who made a Way for all of us to come to Him.
And unlike Islam, the commandments to love God and one another are not the means to salvation; instead, they are the result of salvation. We can love God and our neighbors because we are already saved. THAT is the difference.
Rosey, I have to disagree with your view on the "rules and regulations" that undergird Christianity. Just as the Muslim Hadith proscribe what Muslims should believe and practice, so, too, do the various commentaries of the Church Fathers, so-called, define the practice and beliefs of Christianity. But, when push comes to shove, the words and actions of Jesus are what is foundational in Chistian belief and practice. Even though it is Jewish in its roots, the admonition to love God with your whole heart, and your neighbor as yourself, is STILL the gold standard.
Fair enough, and we probably agree. I'm simply pointing out Jesus quoted, albeit a restatement, one of the two master rabbis of his day, Hillel. Hillel the Great died when Jesus as about seven years old, so they were contemporaries of sorts. The other sage was Rabbi Shammai.
There's a marvelous passage in the Talmud regarding how different sages reduced the Law and the Prophets (the Torah) to the simples form. Hillel was bested by Habakkuk's "The Just shall live by faith" -- but that was a reduction too far.
"He has showed you, oh man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? But to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God." This is also the essence of Christian belief.
I'm not a Christian, but I absolutely agree with you that the words and actions of Jesus - I would maybe expand it a little and say "the life" of Jesus - are foundational. The most crystalline expression of that call, for me, has always been the place in the gospels where Jesus tells his followers to "seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness" and the rest will follow. It's such a radical moral imperative. I couldn't do it myself - or wouldn't, more accurately - but I think a great deal of nonsense and confusion in the modern world with respect to religious faith would be swept away if people noticed that the enterprise of a life it to live it properly, not describe it properly. This should be obvious, but it isn't to most people.
I understand what you are trying to say, and it’s not altogether wrong. However, I would argue that HOW you love God is not following a set of pragmatic rules but developing a Relationship with God. (Now of course, as we love God, we will want to follow his rules, especially when we recognize that His way is better than our way— but following His rules doesn’t earn anything, and certainly doesn’t earn His love for us.) I think that’s a key distinction to make, especially since in Islam, you can follow all the rules correctly and then Allah can changed his mind and send you to Hell.
Show me verse of scripture where God refers to His people as “christians.” Back in the day observers referred to those born again as having Christ in them--Christians. God calls us sons and daughters, beloved, saved, joint heirs with Jesus Christ.
“and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.”
I’ve been a Christian for many years and I didn’t learn this until later in life.
I didn't read this as her reason for adoption Christianity, but more as a "perk". She explicitly said she couldn't handle the spiritual nothing-ness of New Atheism. (" I have also turned to Christianity because I ultimately found life without any spiritual solace unendurable—indeed very nearly self-destructive.") She could have turned to another religion, back to Islam, or liberal spirituality, but she instead turned to Christianity. I think we should reserve judgment on her faith unless we know her whole story. I will be praying for this woman and the impact she can make for God's Kingdom!
Agreed. I did not judge her faith at all. She herself admits to being a new Christian and learning more and more at church on Sundays. I am rooting for her.
Yes as an interested observer I was waiting for her to speak about her inner journey but the article left out this, the most important part, leaving me to wonder if this was just the best choice at the buffet or if a more mystical experience had occurred but she wasn’t willing to be vulnerable about it.
I am also curious about her inner journey - but, I will put forth a third option, based on reading between the lines of this essay. (" I have also turned to Christianity because I ultimately found life without any spiritual solace unendurable—indeed very nearly self-destructive... Of course, I still have a great deal to learn about Christianity. I discover a little more at church each Sunday")
I think she may have found herself in an untenable position spiritually as an atheist. She may have logically chosen to pursue Christianity because of the sense it makes of the world, but maybe she's having her heart and her mind opened through seeking Jesus through this journey. As a Christian myself, I believe the Holy Spirit is the one to lead her there, and He works in mysterious ways sometimes. For some people, their conversion is a Damascus Road event which, as it did for Paul, changes EVERYTHING about their life all at once. For others, it is a slow burn or an opening of a flower, as Jesus told the scribe in Mark 12:34, "You are not far from the Kingdom of God", or like Lydia, maybe the Lord will open (or has already opened) her heart as she listens to the Gospel during church (Acts 16:14-15).
I hope we learn more about this woman's journey! I think you're right, though, the essay focused much more on the secondary effects of her conversion instead of the conversion itself. I'm interested in the latter, too.
Strongly agree. What you've described as "secondary effects" I might call the political ramifications that are important for a person of her standing to communicate in a public forum at the earliest possible time. She knows that others need to know what God is doing in her life.
Some of those others, like me, are Christian believers. Others are athiests, or go-along-get-along middle-roaders, or whatever.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a prominent political and intellectual leader. It would be distracting for her to make it 'all about me' in the sense of the more intimate personal aspects of her walk up that pathway to a personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
Maybe I'm reading too far in between the lines, but the parts I quoted seem more spiritually motivated than pragmatic or cultural. There may be a great deal of pragmatism in this essay, but I'm just saying that we shouldn't assume that just because her inner spirituality is not the main theme of this essay, it doesn't exist. (I actually think the lead-in question of "Can you choose religion/faith on purely pragmatic reasoning?" or whatever they said kind of sets the reader up to read through that lens.)
It just shows you that two readers can read the same essay and come away with different views - looking forward to hearing more of her story as this unfolds!
From my observations of Ali, it appears that she is a very rational person who makes her choices methodically. I don't think she would be a warming of the heart Wesleyan but someone who gets converted by more of a step by step this makes sense way. Luckily we all can approach belief differently as God made us all very different.
By Jove, you've got it! (I think.) My journey from cradle Catholic to Nothing to Christian occurred foolishly to nothing and brick-by-brick back up. No Road to Emmaus 2x4 between the running lights. No sane person would want to read about it.
She may be on a road to conversion like CS Lewis was. Tolkien led him on that road, with rational discussion but eventually it was the Holy Spirit who brought him over the last step.
I have said for quite some time that one's journey is personal. We are each of us unique so why wouldn't our discovery of spirituality also be unique. And All Knowing all loving God would touch our lives differently both based on our needs and the needs of others. The important part is the striving. To get to the right place and continue along the path.
Believe or disbelieve whatever you choose. That is a deeply personal matter. You may do your best to persuade me, but you have no right to impose your beliefs on me or anyone else.
This is a self-defeating argument. You are literally trying to impose your belief on me that people should not impose their beliefs on others. We all advocate for the things we believe in all the time. That's the freedom we have in America. Whether it's expressing beliefs that anti-Semitism is wrong, or advocating for a political candidate, or supporting a law that outlaws some action. We all believe things and try to convince others to believe the same. Why would you discriminate against religious topics?
Yes I hope and pray that her faith is or becomes true in the sense of worship Jesus as God. I hope and pray that it’s not the water-down “spirituality” of many mainline churches that like Jesus’s teachings on love but ignore who He is as God.
True that we are free from having to "earn" it, and require grace. But lived faith requires our use of free will to practice holiness and righteousness each day, and seek the Church's gift of the sacraments to maintain and right our spiritual orientation.
This is a difference between Catholic teaching and Protestant teaching. Catholic teaching says you need to bring some of your own righteousness to the table, while Protestant teaching says our righteousness is like "filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6) and "rubbish" (Romans 3:8-9) when it comes to our justification, and it's only Christ's righteousness that saves us.
I'm aware of the ahistorical Protestant view on justification, and its misunderstanding of the nuanced, longstanding Church teaching. The reality is the views are closer in practice than most will acknowledge. Protestants still believe one must practice holiness in order to demonstrate actual faith and belief in Christ. Their view gets weird when the Reformers advocate that mankind is entirely incapable of moral behavior, and that every single act of moral behavior is due to the Holy Spirit's will and not our own (which isn't free). We are basically demons in that worldview. And it's not mine.
I hope to never understand the feeling of people wanting to kill you for your views, but history shows how easily that can happen. You are a brave and remarkable woman. I have a friend who is reinforcing her Jewish faith in light of current events and we both agree that the rock of both our faiths is necessary to move forward in this world.
I am so proud of The Free Press for sharing this. I hope Ayaan experiences the fullness of a life of faith as a Christ follower! I agree with her assessment of the global situation. As she grows in belief, may she know peace and have the very genuine hope in the future both here and in death.
I read your book Infidel over 9 years ago. I loved you then, and now, reading this, I love you more. You are so brave. And welcome to Christianity. I hope to meet you someday.
The world has been and always will be a set of tribes within tribes that are held together by their individual and group stories. Religions and their stories are one of the most powerful and have directed the lives of millions of people for thousands of years. The power of their story sustains them. The American story is unique. It brought together many different tribes of people from around the world through a shared belief in human rights and freedom that has led to incredible success and a way of life for Americans. Our story is no longer cherished and is fading for various reasons. As we lose our story, we will no longer be willing to fight for our way of life. The October Hamas attack on Israel is a direct attack on their very existence, and Israelis have responded that their story is worth fighting for. Hopefully, America will stand with them and fight if necessary. Otherwise, we will fail together.
It was not only a "direct attack on [Israel's] very existence; it was an attack on humanity and decency, itself. Which is why so many of us say back to the barbarians "we're all Jews here."
"The American story is unique. It brought together many different tribes of people from around the world through a shared belief in human rights and freedom that has led to incredible success and a way of life for Americans."
I wonder what America would be like if the Mayflower was filled with Muslims.
The early kings of England are credited with uniting the tribes. Britain gave the world the example of the system of parliamentary authority. The United States then took things from there. The dysfunctional countries of the world today are so because of tribalism. Tribalism is the great evil. We here in Canada promote multiculturalism, a form of tribalism. It doesn't work. Newcomers don't respect it. They bring their old wars to us here in the new world.
I could not agree with you more! I always loved the Canadian idea (of the 70’s and 80’s) that we were building a mosaic where people from various places could keep their cultures and traditions, yet still be joined together as citizens of a tolerant and accepting country. However, this idea only worked when people were committed to respecting other cultures. As our country has become more diverse we seem to have more immigrants arriving who have prejudices and grudges towards other groups that they do not want to give up. Some of these newcomers do not necessarily want to embrace Canadian values of tolerance and respect.
All of our major political parties seem laser focussed on increasing immigration by huge numbers despite the wishes of most Canadians.This is in spite of issues such as lack of housing etc. They must be aware of the issues related to high levels of immigration happening in Europe right now (such as increased rates of sexual violence against women or incidents of anti semitism) but they are willfully blind to the fact that these issues will happen more and more in Canada if we continue on the path we are on.
Ayaan..I have watched and respected your bravery for years. As a practicing Catholic I am thrilled that you’ve chosen to become a practicing Christian! You are absolutely right about us losing our way due to the rush to embrace secularism in the European tradition. I pray people open their eyes before it’s too late. God Bless you and keep you well!
Hirsi Ali has been fighting the fight against darkness for decades. With real skin in the game. Her voice is one that needs to be heard loudly and widely across America and the world. Let us not forget that her voice was cancelled by many colleges who today preach about the right to free speech. Perhaps they would like to now invite her now to address their students to hear "her truth" AKA THE TRUTH
Ayaan and Bari both give me hope. Bari for her publishing a Christian essay and Ayaan for her pursuit of the Truth where ever it leads and it lead her into several changes, profound changes of her heart and mind. Alexander Solzhenitsyn had a similar change from Communism to Christianity and he gave a famous Commencement Address at Harvard University June 8, 1978 at Harvard. He began his address with "truth eludes us as soon as our concentration begins to flag, all the while leaving the illusion that we are continuing to pursue it. This is the source of much discord. Also, truth seldom is sweet; it is almost invariably bitter. A measure of bitter truth is included in my speech today, but I offer it as a friend, not as an adversary." He went on to state: "A decline in courage may be the most striking feature that an outside observer notices in the West today. The Western world has lost its civic courage, both as a whole and separately, in each country, in each government, in each political party, and, of course, in the United Nations. Such a decline in courage is particularly noticeable among the ruling and intellectual elites, causing an impression of a loss of courage by the entire society. There remain many courageous individuals, but they have no determining influence on public life." May God give us more courageous individuals and leaders. Ayaan, thank you for speaking the Truth publicly to the Powerful.
I'm a big admirer of your writing and your work and your bravery--this conversion surprises me. It's as if you equated atheism with nihilism, if that's not putting the thought too strongly. The values of Christianity (at least since the Reformation!) have been increasingly in line with Enlightenment values: love of life, individual liberty--many democratic values coalesce with Judeo-Christian traditions. But it's always been enough for me to feel the purpose of life is to love it and live it! I always thought of Jesus as a great psychologist and the King James translation of the Bible as a fount of poetry, interesting stories, and wisdom. I'm trying to wrap my head around someone with your enormous intellectual and moral vision--not to mention your sense of humor--believing in the virgin birth, Jesus as not just a man but "the word made flesh" literally and the resurrection. I'm thinking--really? Are you okay? I don't mean to sound rude, but maybe rediscovering your sense of not just humor and the human comedy, but of the absurd might be the way to go in these dark times. Maybe a dash of Bertolt Brecht and Hannah Arendt instead of church?
“I don't mean to sound rude, but maybe rediscovering your sense of not just humor and the human comedy, but of the absurd might be the way to go in these dark times.”
I’m pretty sure you did mean to be rude! Why is this so hard to believe? Happens all the time, and during these dark times, probably more than we think. He is the way, the truth and the life. Check it out!
Honestly don't mean to be rude, Linda. Just meant to convey that I was surprised. I just have a different way of seeing things and I don't see the incompatability of religion with me as a plunge into a dark abyss. It is possible to live a moral, ethical and happy life without having religious beliefs. And it is not that I'm against them--I'm for anything that helps. In one of my favorite novels--Louise Fitzhugh's The Long Secret--there's an elderly preacher who says, "Religion is just a tool to get through life--and if it works, it's a good tool. If it doesn't, it's not." That tool worked wonderfully for my husband. Doesn't work for me.
Melissa, you need to realize where your moral code has come from. It did not just pop into your brain, ex nihilo, it came from SOMEWHERE. If it came from Judeo-Christian beliefs, then fine. Admit it as something valuable that you have incorporated into your life. But your moral code is not original to your own reasoning.
Really. Maybe a dash of Bertolt Brecht and Hannah Arendt instead of church?"? Those are foundational resources? It is often clear that athiests above a certain age are fish who don't know that they're wet.
Faith in Christ is a gift from God. It is a divine and deepening relationship. It is hard to understand or appreciate outside of Christ. You make it sound like a shovel or hoe in your shed. It is so much more. Jeremiah 29:13- try seeking him earnestly, patiently, sincerely.
“Maybe a dash of Bertolt Brecht and Hannah Arendt instead of church?” Sounds petty rude and condescending to me. Mockery of church going people...so tolerant and civil.
I understand what you’re saying here, and don’t really have a problem with it. That’s not how I took the comment, so thanks for sharing what you meant. I don’t understand why people judge those who convert to Christianity…as if it’s so shocking. It can happen at any time. I believe the son of one of the leaders of Hamas also converted to Christianity. I get really bothered by people who make fun of Christianity, yet I can also see why. It’s not so easy to believe in Jesus and what he did. That’s why Christianity is built on faith. It’s the only answer to get through such difficult times in life…that there’s something more after life.
I think that a poor way to look at Christianity-- as just a tool. Who cares if a tool is helpful if it’s not true? I think Muslims would argue that Islam is a “good and helpful tool,” but we have seen what they do with that tool.
Take astrology for example. People who follow astrology find it helpful for their lives. But we actually have good evidence that astrology is all hogwash. It’s not true. It’s not reliable. Why anyone would continue to pursue astrology when it so evidently doesn’t even accurately describe reality boggles my mind. But some people find it “helpful” to follow a lie. Is that what you want to do though, follow a lie because it feels good?
You need to be asking-- is Christianity true? Are its claims true? Not asking if it’s helpful. Helpful doesn’t always mean good.
I'm just musing here, and several people feel offended by my comparison of Christianity to "a tool"--but I mean that pragmatically, not negatively. The religion doesn't have to be true for people to get something useful out of it--hope, for example. T. S. Eliot observed, "Humankind cannot bear very much reality." We all have our illusions. And now I'm really in trouble, having suggested Christianity is one of those illustions. But there's lots I like about it! Great values! My husband was a Christian! I just don't go for the mystical aspects--in other words, I go for the values (which infuse the Western tradition) but not the faith.
I understand, I know you mean no offense. But I hope to challenge your thinking a bit here. Because people can argue for a lot of bad things in the name of them being “helpful.”
Here’s an illustration that might help. (Shout-out to J. Warner Wallace for this one).
Let’s pretend that you sincerely believe that you are sick and that Advil will help you. But let’s say I’m a doctor and I figure out you have tuberculosis. What you need to cure TB is a specific antibiotic medication, not Advil. I could still give you Advil, at your persistence, and it might even help you a bit. You may even have “hope” because it maybe momentarily you’ll feel better. But without the antibiotic, you still have TB. And you may even die from untreated TB, so any “hope” you have is a false hope. I would be a terrible doctor to not try to convince you of the truth— that Advil may be “helpful” but it isn’t the true cure.
A “helpful” or even “hopeful” illusion doesn’t actually help anyone in the same way Advil doesn’t actually help a TB patient. It’s one thing to be misguided or misinformed, but one should not live by lies, no matter how “helpful” those lies are. (Case-in-point: see the damage the whole transagenda is causing people.)
I’m glad there is lots you like about Christianity, but I just challenge you to judge Christianity based on scrutinizing if you think it’s true, not on whether you think it’s helpful. Christians don’t have a relationship with Jesus as a means to an end (as a tool) but knowing Jesus is sort both the means and the ends. (And truly, as Scripture says itself, if Christianity isn’t true, then Christians are to be most pitied of all people! And I think this speaks to this idea that there is no sense in holding hope for a tool that IS just a delusion, no matter how helpful that delusion may feel.)
Melissa, it’s called faith. And I find it insulting that you basically insinuate that if someone is smart, they can’t possibly believe in God. If you don’t want to believe, and/or don’t have faith, that’s fine. Just don’t knock other people for it.
I write all of this bc it’s my experience, too. I know it doesn’t make sense but it’s bc her conversion is a transformation of the heart and mind. Jesus Christ does that...That is the evidence. I have had a lasting inner peace that nothing else has ever given me, even in the midst of pain and struggle. I have hope. Ones life is radically changed and you are a better version of yourself in the way you think, act and treat others. Jesus is the remedy for our sin, for life. He has done that for me.
What helped me grow in my faith was studying Jesus Christ Himself by reading the Gospels. The KJV was always hard for me to understand. I gained more understanding with the Amplified and the ESV translations 😊.
"maybe rediscovering your sense of not just humor and the human comedy, but of the absurd might be the way to go in these dark times"
There's an old military saying, "there are no atheists in foxholes". Maybe you need to experience real dark times, the kind where your imminent death is all but certain. If somehow you survive, perhaps you'll understand what the author of that saying meant.
I appreciate your bafflement, but your condescension towards Hirsi, someone whose intellect and seriousness you admire, is understandable if unwarranted. Becoming a Christian has about as much to do with belief in the sense you mean it (virgin birth, resurrection, etc.) as being an American has to do with believing George Washington never told a lie. You’re welcome to believe these things literally, but they are irrelevant, either to being a Christian, in the first case, or American in the second case. The tragedy is not that you don’t know this, it’s that very few people who call themselves Christian do either. The God available to the followers of Jesus does not care what you believe or to which party or religious entity you belong. This is very very bad news for people who think they are believers because they adhere to doctrinal claims. Given that they are confused it is understandable that people who have not taken up the path shown by Jesus would be confused too. It’s ok - you don’t need to worry. Faith (what she has adopted) and belief (your basically materialist representation of religion and faith) are essentially different things.
All interesting questions worth discussing at length, preferably over a good meal. But perhaps what Ayaan says is true - that Atheists sometimes can't see the wood for the trees.
Cut her some slack on her conversion, please. As any new believer would attest, and as Ayaan herself has stated, there is a lot to learn and to take in with a Christian belief system. Surely, over time, she will coalesce her search and learning into something that is practicable in her life. We ALL go through this process, even if we are NOT Christian.
Also glaringly missing from all of this is that Jesus preached damnation (whatever you think damnation means) to anyone who doesn't hold a certain thought in their mind!
To look at just the loving parts of the Bible is to demonstrate clearly how very man-made it all is.
We have the philosophies as humans, to live well. I find it sad if it is really true that the only way to make humans follow philosophies is to place them into a religion.
(In in the case of Christianity, a religion that teaches we need a "salvation" or we face eternal damnation. It takes pretzel-like twists -- that I used to do a lot of -- to say that it's anything else at core.)
The Enlightenment values of Christianity were there at the very beginning of Christianity, just got lost in the power-grabbing that became the Catholic Church. The Reformation took Christianity back to the Bible-- back to what was written centuries ago. All of your Enlightenment values COME from Christian thinkers, not the other way around.
But logically, atheism should lead to nilihsm. If nothing created the whole universe for no reason, if you are just a clump of cells that evolved from random chance, then you have no purpose, nothing does. Only an honest atheist can admit that this is the logically consistent position to have if you don’t believe in a Creator God. For most, that’s too much of a untenable position to actually live in, so they do what you do and “make their own purpose and meaning” but this is aligned with humanism than pure atheism.
Melissa, I thought your comment contained the most intellect of all the comments read thus far. I agree with your insights! I was actually raised Christian, dabbled w/ atheism but left it asap due to its nihilism (which write in my book). I wholeheartedly agree with you that we need to look at Jesus more as a philosopher vs "word made flesh." I also argue that this perspective of "word made flesh" is the result of the Roman Empire, which we now call, the Roman Church.
I have an entire series of these topics called "Spiritual Sundays" but I think you'd resonate with this one called: "Why Gnosticism is the Christianity that's needed today."
As a lapsed atheist myself, I struggle with seeing Jesus as the Word but moreover realize how crucial his and Christian philosophy is, how helpful it's been for me. I'm struggling.
Thanks for this comment David! Check out my podcast and my works as well. What's really helped me is understanding the historical context in which the Bible was written, the political moves behind it, so forth and so more. Once we understand this context, we're able to see it for what it is and the philosophical lessons it provides. But if we're not able to see all the context, we get half the picture -- which leads to all sorts of ideas.
Hope this helps and I recommend my podcast here as an intro to the topic:
I was involved in evangelical Christianity for decades until I started acknowledging doubts based on incongruities in the Bible and learning more about its origins. In my resulting exploration I discovered the gnostic gospels (gospel of Thomas, etc.) and it was like a revelation. But it led to me being thrown out of my church, where I was a Sunday school teacher, after I was honest about my discoveries. All my Christian friends abandoned me and were told not to speak to me. Would like to go back to Church, but where does a gnostic go?
Many thanks for your thoughts and your response, Franklin. I think not being raised as a Christian makes it difficult for me to grasp stories that would seem reasonable if I had heard them as a child from my parents. But I didn't, so now the ideas that a virgin gave birth and a man rose from the dead just seem to me like science fiction. But being someone with no religion doesn't mean having no faith in humanity or no love of moral and ethical values. My husband was a very devout Catholic--was raised in a region steeped for centuries in Catholicism--and we had all the same beliefs in general; I just can't go along with the religious stories because they seem supernatural to me.
Maybe your just "having the same beliefs" means you do ultimately believe in the big picture, and that believing in the magical stories are irrelevant to that? I have some of the same perspective as you and finally just concluded the verity of Jesus's teaching to "Believe in God; believe also in me. [as] in my Father's house are many rooms." Just a thought. But then it just works for me.
The idea of the dead man being raised comes from Judaism (Elijah and the widow's son) and the idea of the virgin birth comes from the Virgin Goddesses and their hero sons in ancient religions like the Greek and the HIndu. I find those stories less problematic than the Christian idea (neither from Judaism nor from ancient religions) that non-believers go to an eternal hell. That is why I am a Hindu, not a Christian
Just admit where your moral code has come from. It was NOT from your own intellect. It has its roots in an existing belief system that you don't actually believe in. I have no problem with that, for if a person's belief system makes for a better society, and a better person, then I am all for it!
Human morality has deeper roots than any religious faith or written law. It arose with us out of our early prehistory as social primates, then was refined and extended when eventually we were able to think things through and write them down.
The Golden Rule - the basic impulse of reciprocity - is not an invention of Christianity, but part of our common human heritage that pervades cultures around the world. It takes different forms, is subject to different interpretations, but the core of it is the same.
You're 100% right and I can echo those statements. Me being raised in the faith from before I could talk made these stories 10x more real. It was later on, as an adult, once I looked upon these stories again with fresh eyes that I could then decipher fact from fiction.
My argument is that all religions say the same thing. However, these religions have become dogmatic for political control. Once you separate the politics and the metaphors from the religions, you're able to gleam from them, their true essence and value :)
Here's another article on the concept of LOVE which you may appreciated:
"I wholeheartedly agree with you that we need to look at Jesus more as a philosopher vs "word made flesh." I also argue that this perspective of "word made flesh" is the result of the Roman Empire, which we now call, the Roman Church."
I get your point about the opening statement of John's gospel (the Word made flesh) with the Roman Catholic silliness of the literal transubstantiation of the communion element. It was always a metaphor for consuming God's word (the Torah), as the intimate Jewish Torah commentaries indicate.
Concomitantly, the Christian text (Matthew 5:17-19) affirms Jesus of Nazareth did not come to abolish the Law (the Written Torah) and the Prophets (the Oral Torah) but to demonstrate (fulfill) them -- to be the Torah made flesh is, to me, a compelling argument. The fundamental point of Judaism is to bring Heaven to Earth by elevating this world toward Godliness by revealing God through connective obedience to God's instructions presented at Sinai. These are the Laws of Noah to the world and the enumerated mitzvot to the Light to the Nations, the Jews. Jesus restated Hillel's reduction as a positive -- limitlessly creative construction.
Please don’t reduce the consecration (the most sacred moment of a Catholic mass) to “silliness”. If that is your belief then so be it. It is condescending and offensive to me that you would use that term on a public thread where you know you are among Catholics. As Christians, for the sake of unity and peace we should respect each others rituals.
Mia culpa! Mia culpa! I beg your forgiveness. I was flippantly insensitive. Me who is on his face beholding the grandeur of the Sistine Chapel and St. Peter's basilica.
We may have a lot in common here! One of the questions I look to discuss is was "Jesus" divine or was he a man, who taught us the divinity within ourselves?
There is still enough courage left in the U.S. that a Jewish woman publishes an essay written by a Muslim woman turned atheist turned Christian.
May God Bless the U.S.A.
Except that Ali’s point was a stronger one. Unless the West wakes up to the Muslim calls for destruction of all (other than Islam), Western civilization will lose this religious war only one side is fighting. And her point that “wokeness” is teaming with Islam to defeat the Judeo- Christian teachings of love, understanding, forgiveness.
Israel is the front lines of this war. But make no mistake about it, it’s coming here to the US. And we better be prepared to fight, as the Israeli’s are currently, otherwise there will be nothing left of who and what we love and believe in.
Thank you for your courage Ms Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
There is one difference between the U.S. and Israel: Israel was well down the path to disarming its citizens, and it doesn't take a lot of imagination to consider what might have happened on October 7th if those Israelis had been able to quickly lay their hands on a weapon.
It is said that Admiral Yamamoto, having destroyed most of Pearl Harbor, never considered attacking the U.S. directly because there "would be a gun behind every blade of grass." So far we have been able to stave off Israeli-style gun-grabbing by the authoritarians in The Swamp, who fear the armed citizen more than anything else. But those very same swamp-cretins have flooded America with millions of anonymous fighting-age men over the last three years, and when those men mount an assault like the "Palestinians" did on October 7, it will be men like my heavily-armed neighbors who take them down.
I am for the freedom to arm, but won't those millions of anonymous fighting-age men streaming over our borders the last 3 years also have access to guns here? We need controlled immigration. There is an underlying reason these (mostly) men are streaming over our borders, and it is not because they are refugees seeking asylum.
Not legally. In spite of what many believe you need to pass a background check to purchase a firearm.
What about illegal firearms? It is easy to 3D print one nowadays.
Well, if they are going to get/make firearms illegally then it really doesn't matter if we make gun illegal, does it. It would only harm those who follow the law...you know, the people the government should care about protecting.
And when you pull the trigger, blow your hand off.
Diana Prince
You mean to purchase a gun from legitimate arms dealer.
‘Tis true. There are far too many in the hands of criminals and mentally ill people. If only we had a legal system that’d put the criminals in jail and remove guns from the unstable.
Alas.
Rights, and especially Second Amendment rights, also have responsibilities. You have to know what you are doing, and that means train and practice. It is very rare for a thug to win an exchange with a police officer because the officers TRAIN.
Having said that, as a life NRA member and instructor, I'll give the first lesson: never draw into a drop. If the thug has the drop (his gun on you), do NOT draw; do what he tells you. If you are of a mind to shoot him, do something like throwing him your wallet but make sure it goes over his head and draw when he does the natural thing and follows it with his eyes to the ground. That's very risky and don't do it unless you think he will probably kill you.
Very few of the invaders will have training. If you plan to defend yourself, and especially if you conceal-carry, take the time to learn what you are doing or somebody is going to kill you and your family with your own gun.
True dat. We trained our kids too. My son and his new bride love hunting white tails (she bagged 3 herself last season) but if you’re gonna have them around, don’t hide them cause kids are kids, if they understand gun safety and how volatile they can be, they are far less likely to accidentally hurt themselves or others. My husband is the real expert. When we watch movies he shakes his head at the foolishness of how they are portrayed and used. he knows every different kind of firearm, what rounds they use, how to take them apart and everything in between.
I agree and also lock them in a safe or at a bare minimum use trigger guards.
I remember your comment, Jim from last year when you were telling how you taught shooting and handling the he gun to the youth.
I don’t remember whether it was after Uvalde tragedy… but we were discussing here in the comments how contemporary youth thinks of guns in terms of video games. And your story showed how it changed perception once one put his or her hands on an actual gun.. I loved that story of yours.
Here in the US, we always seem to beat the drum for rights, but rights are not free. They come with responsibilities. A firearm is a tool - and a deadly tool whose use - and even availability - is a heavy burden. Our gub'ment wants to treat us all like we are children and take away anything that might be dangerous, but the fact is that the gub'ment can't - or more commonly WON'T - and this particular regime doesn't want to - protect us from the predators that are a natural part of all human cultures. Our ancestors faced those dangers every day simply as part of life, and the idea of disarming was laughable.
Now more than ever we must demand our right to self-defense, but we must also demand - and willingly shoulder - the responsibility to train and practice that comes with it. As we say in the South, it ain't play.
I watched a documentary a long while back that said on average only 25% of the WWII soldiers probably only fired at the enemy.
During the Vietnam war training tactics changed from basic target shooting to more human form targets. This change caused a shift that resulted in more soldiers firing directly at enemy combatants. I think this dynamic is amplified by the ever more realistic graphics and scenarios in video games. It may be a catalyst for increased crime but it also may have the unintended benefit of preparing the general citizenry to engage in defense in the case it’s needed.
Let’s hope and pray that it’s never needed but that there are enough ppl who are capable of fighting effectively if and when it does. It sure seems inevitable at times.
You’re right about the immigration problem. It’s not racist to want to be choosy about who gets to become an American here. Lots of other nations have such standards. We all need to push back against the race baiters which seek to manipulate everyone by yelling “racist”.
I could care less what color you are, what you worship(or don’t) but I will say that in the late 1800’s and the early 1900’s, the immigrants from Europe especially, consisted mostly of working class ppl attempting to escape the caste system in Europe. They wanted to BECOME Americans. They weren’t trying to subvert our culture, highjack our government or become a conduit for illegal trade of ppl, drugs or firearms. They were enamored of the notion that it didn’t matter if you were of “noble” birth, only the kind of person you were (character) and if you were willing to work hard. There was no meaningful welfare, no free services or healthcare. You had to earn everything. Now I’m not saying I am against public services, overhauling our ineffective medical system or even welfare benefits for ppl who really need them. There were always soup kitchens and other organizations that tried to feed ppl.
We need common sense reform in just about every aspect of our government, from the feds to local municipalities. There should be no recriminations for expressing ideas that differ from the political party in power, no cancellation or unequal application of laws. When we only enforce laws against certain groups and not so much others then we have lost our country. Sharia law and other laws should never be enforced and if anyone in any subgroup of ppl tries to do so, they should be charged accordingly for any action that conflicts with our laws.
Okay, relinquishing the soap box.
Don’t worry, Texas will secede before we let them take our guns. 🤣
Nobody in their right mind wants to be in a firefight with Federal law enforcement. Ask the Koresh clan, the Bundy's or the Weaver family. In these cases, and most every other of this type, the situation was mishandled and people needlessly died. In foreign policy, billions in weaponry abandoned to the black market in Afghanistan, the Benghazi massacre, the avoidable war in the Ukraine. Etc. Remember, there are thousands of good men and women in Federal service trapped inside the same nightmare as ourselves.
The mask off in your face reality today is the weaponization of law enforcement across Western civilization by the fascist corporatist/"woke" DNC/EU/CCP/WEF/Davos juggernaut. Here in the American Republic the mercenary DOJ and select DNC/Soros political operatives continue to interfere with the electoral process and the willing persecution of anyone and anything that fails to serve the DNC and the new totalitarians of the would be global monarchy. Parents at school board meeting are really terrorists, the kangaroo court Trump persecution, the lie at the drop of a hat MSM, the object lesson called Julian Assange, Hunter's laptop. We don't have enough fingers and toes to count the travesties. Add the desperation of the criminals to maintain political control and the stench of the witches brew is overwhelming. Why their desperation? Because all vampires must loot and feed off the living. The life and freedom of others is the thing they covet most.
"..we the people..." are justified in having legitimate anger at the willingness of APPOINTED political operatives who abandon the objective enforcement of justice in order to serve the political machinations of the political marionettes who inhabit the D.C. hog trough. But we should remember that the darkness inside us is our own and our willingness to carry it is the thing that allows the honest light of truthful freedom to shine.
I don't know if Ramaswamy should or should not be President. I do believe he is attempting to have the honest conversation we are all looking for. The Revolution of 1776 is not over.
Ramaswamy is one taco short of a combination plate. Seriously, he's not going to get anywhere near the White House, except on a tour.
I'm saying he's trying to create a truthful national conversation about the issues. And he is asking for a return to the core values of 1776.
I like that Ramaswamy is out there talking. He adds quite a bit. Maybe DeSantis could employ him in some role if he becomes president.
Thank Zeus that neither of them will become President of the USA.
It’s never over. Every generation must be willing to fight to keep our freedoms. They are counting on beating us down and keeping us afraid. Biden threatened to employ the full arsenal of our military defenses against anyone/thing that considered any type of revolt.
I’m not advocating a civil war but I want to be at least reasonably prepared in case. There are indicators that any number of situations could arise to cause
EOTWAWKI. This could happen by nature in the form of a massive solar flare that just fried any and all electronics. Most vehicles would suddenly become inoperable. Our financial system would collapse in the span of seconds.
I hope I don’t live to see this kind of world.
😂
This comment makes me think there's a form of "right-wing intersectionalism". TFP hosts a rather interesting article about religion's purpose - both in Somalia and in the West. The comments go quickly into the realm of talking about gun rights.
I'm not against gun rights -- far from it -- but that's really not *at all* relevant to the article. It's, I imagine, similar to how a left-winger would comment on how climate change marginalizes non-binary people.
The war is fought in our culture, in our institutions, our halls of power, our corporations, our newsrooms, our apps, our managerial-class administrators, our classrooms, our campuses. They won't be coming with weapons. They're coming via mass (mostly legal) migration to overwhelm the indigenous populations of Europe, and "peacefully" take away power. They're coming via social media and woke ideology to control and indoctrinate a generation of American kids. Guns won't help fend these threats off.
"The war is fought in our culture, in our institutions, our halls of power, our corporations, our newsrooms, our apps, our managerial-class administrators, our classrooms, our campuses."
and
"They're coming via social media and woke ideology to control and indoctrinate a generation of American kids."
Totally. From PITT ""Most of the children claim to be some type of queer." When your five year-old comes home from kindergarten and tells you that even though he has a penis, maybe he's a girl, you're living in the Queer Zone."
"Queering" refers not to homosexuality per se, but to acting in ways that subvert and dismantle the foundational norms of society, biological and everything else. It is not a movement that has a stopping point. DIE/Queering/"implicit" bias... It must all be discredited.
Yup. There is a spiritual battle going on at all times. We fight against principalities and spiritual darkness.
Most good essays generate a wealth of commentary and it can go very far afield of the central topic. You must be a natural gatekeeper which is a good thing.
:-)
thanks bobbybob! I wondered at that derailment of the commentary- it has basically nothing to do w/ the article, which I found powerful and interesting.
Jim Willis
Nothing would have happened. Guns are no substitute for knowledge and common sense. Muslims have been invited into the tent. Nothing about the conquest ideology of Islam was learned on 9/11.
Powerful point. I was not aware of that stance by Yamamoto. I have wondered, how were the residents of the Be'eri Kibbutz not armed with them living so close to Gaza?
That's a good question. One of the kibbutzim was armed and fought them off. I also read about retired army officers who grabbed a pistol and headed toward the fight (maybe in the WSJ). They must have gotten more arms on the way there, but they saved relatives and friends as well. It doesn't hurt to have your own firearms.
Israel should be like Switzerland. The Swiss have universal draft. At 18 you spend 300 days in uniform but are in the reserves until you are 50. You also are required to take your rifle home with you and its ammo.
I hate to rain on your parade, but I spoke to a Swiss MP at the Brexit 'victory' rally in 2018 and he was telling me that miltia principle was being eroded. Joining the UN and putting their trust in "Collective Security" bollocks really began the slide; they are as likely to turn into blancmange as the rest of Western Europe now. If you want to look to anywhere in Europe; look to Poland. Stopped the Ottomans before Vienna; stopped Trotsky on the Vistula. No defensible borders, so they know they need a fuck-off army; unity; and strong government. We weren't there for them last time, and they'll not be fooled again. A much better fit for Israel.
How does this negate my post?
They do have a draft, and reserves, for both men and women. In practice it's not universal as many Orthodox Jews and Israeli Arabs do not serve.
I thought every Jewish boy and girl has to join the army at 18 (I know it's optional for Arab and Palestinian Israelis. ).
Yes but they leave their weapons upon the end of their active service. Unlike the Swiss they don't bring the home.
Israel is socialist. And no socialist government trusts their citizens enough to keep weapons.
Yup and learn how to use it. I knew about Yamamoto. Americans possess more firearms among its citizens than there are citizens. We sure have quite a few but I rarely tell anyone as it makes your home a target for thieves.
I have heard in separate podcasts this week that one hosts' Jewish friends in Israel are all headed for the US, and that the other hosts' Jewish friends in the US are all buying guns.
100% correct
Iran will never get to the second part because they will lose IMHO at the first: Israel. The Israelis have waited centuries and endured the unendurable to have their own nation, and they will NOT be overrun, even if it means turning large sections of the Middle East - including Israel if needs be - into a sheet of radioactive glass. Iran is engaging in a suicide cult and they are too blinded by hatred to figure it out.
The Jews have won about 214 of the 965 Nobels awarded over the decades; the Arabs about 15, despite outnumbering the Jews by orders of magnitude. Maybe they should get their goddamned priorities straight and worry more about improving their own lives than extinguishing those of others.
In visiting my sister in NC I visited a retired naval battleship in Willmington. I was amazed at how big it was up close and by the speed at which it was manufactured with ppl trained to operate it. The engines alone were very impressive and took real skill to keep going. We should always be prepared to defend but need can be a powerful impetus too.
In the very, very, very unlikely event (Jesus is more likely to show up first!) of Israel succumbing without firing off all their Jericho missiles in their deathspasms and reducing the Middle East to a radioactive wasteland, I'm pretty sure one 'Ohio' or one CBG could accomplish the same and still have some left over for any other tosspot that wants to try their luck.
I think one need only to look around with open eyes to see that it is already here...
Doesn’t it make sense that wokism would find a home in universities and colleges that value the intellect above all else? The only love that can be experienced by a pure intellect is that which comes from the belief that all is subsumed by the intellect and can, therefore control all.
What did I just do there, though? I used “intellect” to define itself and, thereby, created a circular argument.
Love as defined in most religions is based on faith, and faith requires a surrender to something or someone other than the self.
The only thing I’m sure of is that I need more coffee, right now…
The irony is that there is little that is as anti-intellectual as woke ideology.
Well yeah, because what I think of as the greatest aspects of "the intellect" (reason, logic, etc.) have been jettisoned from "wokism" (critical theory) as just another manifestation of "white dominant culture."
I had my peak-trans moment a LONG time ago, but the peak-"woke" race moment came when they started saying math was white supremacy... Like, how demeaning.
The irony is that there is little or no love in contemporary Christianity in the USA.
That's surprising, in addition to the comments below, my non-Christian husband has been astounded this week as the members of my church have been dropping by with food for us as I recover from a knee replacement. I didn't even know one couple, but I do now. This is typical of most churches in the country.
Is this based upon your personal experience or are you discounting the prison work, the homeless shelters, adoption organizations, crisis pregnancy centers, alcohol abuse programs, not to mention the work individuals do?
If it is based on your experience with individuals or churches, I understand. Lots of hypocrites out there! But we are all sinners. I think that is where Ali will have her greatest struggle, being tempted to give up on God because of his people! 😯
I wasn't aware you did a study showing the love deficiency of Christianity in the U.S. Please do share your results.
Yeah, well, that's just your opinion, man. The irony is that this opinion is worth almost nothing, will make you no friends, and strongly savors of bitterness.
And ridiculous. They need to watch the movie “Hidden Figures” if they believe that BS.
The problem with "reason" as a guiding principal is that most people are not smart enough to live that way. So they end up just following someone else who is either charismatic enough or seems smart enough. Which makes it end up being no different than a religion. Except that most major religions have hundreds to thousands of years of successes and failures to weigh its merits. Rationalism is relatively new and changes as facts and info change. So it's moral compass is easier to steer.
For the record, I am not arguing against rationalism. Just that I think there are very few people who follow it that are actually good adherents of it. The rest are either following someone, or use it as an excuse to basically believe whatever they can rationalize to allow them to live the way they want (and many religious people do this too for the record).
Right???
“Hmm - you make an interesting point that I disagree with, so let’s discu-“
“GO TO HELL, YOU FASCIST PIG!!!”
Rational. :)
The only religion of peace is Christian. Islam is “I will kill you if you do not believe in Mohammad.”
There are thousands of years of history disputing your claim about Christianity.
Well I’m just impressed that you uncovered your own circular argument (I guess you won that round fair and square) so skip the caffeine cause you don’t need it.
When you get to the point that you don’t understand what you’re saying then yeah, go for the venti latte.
True unconditional love is a state of selflessness. Self serving is our most base nature so where does love come from? Just a natural desire to ensure our prodgeny’s survival? Everyone loves another at some point. We love and value friends like family too.
I think the tough guy love for brothers is fascinating. Very powerful too. Most humans have tenderness and compassion. We would not have survived as a species without it.
You say > "faith requires a surrender to something or someone other than the self."
Faith may require this but it is not what faith really is.
Care to discuss a bit.
Absolutely- belief is critical, too.
Nice.
There's not much that a good cup of coffee won't fix.
You > "There's not much that a good cup of coffee won't fix."
I like coffee (I'm imbibing now) and Johnnie Walker Black (I was lead there by Hitch) as much as the next guy, but really there is not much that either will fix.
I think Ayann is exploring the correct path. Why don't you check it out?
…and my favorite, from the beginning of Romans 5:
5 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[b] boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
Most beautiful passage I think.
Matthew 25:41 (NIV)
41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'
Yep, nothing but love and peace to be found here!
G. Jn. 8:44, Acts 5: 1-11. One is the foundation of anti-semitism; the other of communism. You began with Paul, in whose writings you will only find a hallucinatory Christ and a sect that bears very little resemblance to the Gospel fiction. 1 Cor. 13 is a wonderful piece of writing, but that might be more down to William Tyndale than the original author of the chapter; which is intrusive to the text and probably later than most of the rest. Which parts of 1st Corinthians are actually Paul very much depends on where you fall on what Paul originally taught. There is no scholarly consensus.
. . . with a brief pause to consign a bunch of people to eternal torment. No dissonance there, for you?
The west is already moving away from Christianity, and for many good reasons. One person's so-called conversion is just a drop in the bucket.
Leaving aside the debate whether the reasons they moved away from Christianity is good or not, the problem is what did they move to? The point she's making, which many of us recognize for quite some time now, is a large swathe of people don't move to some higher level of intellectual existence. They move to different kinds of fanaticism with no moral core or anchor. Many are and have been behaving like village idiots, literally speaking as in villages in the Dark Ages, and causing serious harms and destabilizing our societies. It's like they're back to the Dark Ages when people first discovered religion, pre-Christianity.
Actually the Dark Ages were the same time period as the Middle Ages. They occurred with the fall of Rome about 416 AD to the beginning of the Renaissance. They were not pre-Christian.
Yeah, you make a good point here, QX. While Christianity may seem a little lacking today, there isn't much good to say about our secular society today, perhaps most exemplified by "keeping up with the Kardasians." Those of us longing for a better world are really caught between a rock and a hard place.
Might be a bit late for you: but less longing; more rolling up our sleeves and building that better world ourselves. No bugger else is going to do it for us.
Perhaps you ought to investigate both more closely, and see if either has some actual substance.
Excellent analysis.
Jesus though did relate the parable that a shepherd will leave the flock to save a lost sheep.
One persons awakening is cause for rejoicing.
God gives us all the right to free will. You can choose to reject or have faith and if faith is chosen, you can elect the faith/path that best speaks to your heart. It is for this reason that no man should take it upon himself to impose faith and particularly religion, upon another. Religion is mostly an invention of man. The Bible does give a framework to establish what that could look like but we are all flawed and think our own understanding should override what too many view as an improper application. This doesn’t cover the wealth of posers either but that is why God alone gets to judge. Only He can see into your heart. Well, I hope this lady has found an inner peace that will carry her spirit home one day.
Apart from Islam, a Judeo-Xtian "heresy", our other problems are? Almost to a man Xtian "heresies". Pie-in-the-sky, jam tomorrow, complete with "New Jerusalem", Xtianities without "God", the supernatural, the Eschaton or the Rapture. Full circle to the "This World" Judaism of the "Saducees".
The west may be but one of the fastest growing areas for Christianity in the world is Africa. Another fast growing area is the Middle East.
Do you REALLY want that hate-filled flavour to win out? Not much more than a cigarette paper between the backwards, bigoted, flavours of African Xtianity and Islam. The Middle East all the Xtians are dead or fled from. How does that work?
Actually, if you read further in the comments and I'e heard the same thing the fastest growing church in the world today is in Iran.
And why do you call Christianity in Africa hate-filled?
Yeah I don’t really understand that one myself. Doubters gonna doubt, haters gonna hate. If the Bible is taught in the spirit in which it is written, it is a message of love and devotion. Children rebel at authority and are rash. Adults should understand that God only desires that we return His love and love one another.
Unfettered indulgence isn’t love. Sometimes we don’t get what we want when we want it and sometimes it’s what’s in our best interest, even if we can’t see that.
To its demise too. Look around, the results are everywhere.
Who sullied which Christian tradition exactly? Christians burning people all over the world for centuries upon centuries have done enough sullying themselves.
It was actually the acceptance of Darwin’s theory of evolution that cinched the ridiculous argument that black Africans were less “evolved”. The transition from a largely illiterate population to the majority having at least a fifth grade education but not a strong understanding of science made it easy to manipulate many to have what might have sounded like a rational idea. Preachers especially should have taught the truth about the word of God which did not commiserate with the bigoted, foolishly misconstrued teachings that even today are cherry picked passages used to support predetermined and distorted points.
Absolutely. Now the bigger denominations are rolling back on what clearly is defined as abominable behavior in scripture lest their pews be vacant and coffers empty.
Greed is still entrenched in too many Christian organizations.
Those who lead others astray for lust of gold or flesh will indeed rue the day they did so.
And here in Detroit, you have the Rabbis standing with Talib.
I agree. Conversion is needed. However, I also harp on a key point she makes, the empty secularism that refuses to speak straight to the lies that are islam. Nobody says: Mohammed was not a prophet! He was a Jim Jones psychopath. He taught his followers slaughter, assassination, murder, rape, and torture. His creed is demonic, straight from the depths of hell, turning followers into monsters. This needs to be said. It is not a religion at all, but a monstrous murder cult that turns the concept of every other religion upside down.
We must be able to look clearly and say, "No! That?! That is evil incarnate, demonic in its purpose, lies from top to bottom. Demonic in its history from inception to today."
I am not a Christian, but I recognize Christianity as a true religion. People are what we are, but Christianity, Buddhism, Advaita, etc., are true in their doctrines. Islam stands alone, a blood soaked horror doctrine. Islam's hatred of jews is founded on spite, not any sort of god, because jews rightly laughed at him when he demanded to be recognized as prophet.
This must be said, clearly. Islam is not a legitimate religion. Point to everything Islam lionizes, believes and does.
"By their fruits you shall know them."
Great point! Most will freely criticize Christians, but rare is the person who stands up to the followers of Islam. Ali is a unique woman!!
Jesus said, Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Do today's Christians live this?
Sadly, less and less over time. Churches that behold politically correct positions over biblical truth are leading ppl astray.
Good question for examining my conscience! And I would assert that atheism does a better job at “killing the soul” than just about anything.
But for Muslims, much of Western Civilization would have been lost in the dark ages.
Because in those days, Muslims knew how to use Jewish and Christian brains. When Aleppo and Alexandria and Beirut and Damascus were multicultural, they flourished. Now they're dumps.
When Muslims expelled or murdered their Jewish and Christian neighbors, they had nothing left but Islam, and Islam is not conducive to the intellect or to commerce or that something that makes great cities.
What? That’s just ludicrous. The early Catholic Church actually supported scientific discovery and taught that God gave us great intellect to USE it. The flat earthers were pagans. The book of Job, the first book believed to have been written, described the earth “as an orb in the sky”.
Spare us...
And I agree. This is not an "acceptable" statement...but a true one. Give us eyes to see.
And you’re correct. Mohammed highjacked the inheritance of the Hebrews, rewrote their Torah and returned the inheritance to Ismael and Esau. If anyone ever fulfilled the description of the antichrist it was Mohammed.
Ignorant ppl want to compare the spread of Christianity to Islam but there’s no comparison. Jesus instructed his disciples to go out to preach the good news, if they encountered ppl who would not receive their words they were to rise, shake the dust from their clothes and walk away. Not slay them, not force their compliance or even write them down for it.
If Mohammed was actually visited by an entity that gave him instructions then he got hoodwinked big time. If he devised it himself he was devilishly clever and more evil than any other person in human history. Since I see it as a false doctrine I guess it doesn’t matter to me but damn, I cringe when I hear the very naive things ppl say.
The political correctness police though require nothing but respect for Islam, excuse it’s very violent doctrine and misrepresent everything about it. I don’t believe all Muslims to be evil or bad ppl. I know some who are kind and generous.
Technically it IS a religion, just a bad one.
Amen
Word!
Well I was about to make a similar comment and sentiment- but you already framed my
Thoughts perfectly. Amen!
Exactly. You condensed my thoughts perfectly.
Exactly. And one of many reasons I think TFP is very important!
Oh, well said, well said!
Well said indeed. Christianity as counterweight to Jihadism. Something has to be and I doubt it will be pronouns or DEI
And may it always be so!!!
Amen!
Amen
Beautifully said!
I have followed the career of Ayaan Hirsi Ali from the moment she became a household name when her friend Theo van Gogh was murdered by an Islamist for the film "Submission." She has been a fighter for human rights and a voice of warning these many years. Persons with her fortitude are needed now more than ever.
May she only go from strength to strength.
Ayaan has indeed been extremely courageous and a steady beacon standing in the way of, basically, Muslim religious tyranny. One would think the meaning and the purpose of her life, chosen by her and so clear to the rest of us in our opinion of her, is obvious.
And yet it is belied by the sentence she wrote below:
'Atheism failed to answer a simple question: What is the meaning and purpose of life?'
I think the God she seeks may already be within her.
If it is within her it is not worthy of her worship. Only a god outside of ourselves, not made up by our self is worthy of worship. Otherwise we are only worshipping ourselves and we know we are flawed.
Well said. Ppl today seem to think they create God. To that I say”go in a restroom and take a good look in the mirror cause if you define God then the person you see in the mirror is your God”. Oh that gets ppl mad. But it’s true. If you truly want to know God then any God by definition is an entity that is specifically NOT of your own design.
So true.
Ayaan, in 2015 I shared my conversion testimony from atheism to Christianity with you, calling you my atheist sister. Welcome to the flock my Christian sister. God bless you and I pray that He keeps on guiding you every step of the way.
Christians everywhere are rejoicing. Welcome, Ayaan, into the congregation of the faithful who know Jesus and his message of love and forgiveness. I pray that word of your conversion starts a wave of Muslims bravely abandoning Islam and becoming followers of Jesus Christ.
As a Jew, I was so happy to hear this. The greatest defense Jews have in the western world, aside from Jews themselves, are dedicated Christians.
Truth. And the greatest enemy of the Jews is radical Islam. And therein lies what America refuses to face. "Tolerance" of radical Islam is a suicide pact for our nation.
Last sentence = Spot on.
"Tolerance of radical Islam is a suicide pact for our Nation. "
Agreed. The sight of a woman in a burka on an American street is beyond jarring.
Another great from G K Chesterton, God rest his soul, “Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions”.
Perhaps Chesterton should be taught in schools.
Yes, yes he should. And he is in many private schools. Including Chesterton Academy whose chapters are found all over the US
Agree Agree Agree.
And the greatest enemy to America is the far left wing radical, woke cabal of the Democrat Party that will not denounce Tlaib, Omar, AOC, Omar, Pressely, etc.
D gutless wonders that blame America's destruction on Trump, rinos, & abortion.
There are no two ways to diagram our spiraling downfall into a socialist abyss.
No. Tolerance of any islam. The doctrine itself, all of it, was born bankrupt. There is no "good islam". There is, at best, Islam that says, "That was a long time ago. We don't do that anymore." I have read exactly that fatwa --- it's a direct quote.
And our US foreign policy, backing islamists in Syria, literally backing al qaeda and ISIS there. Before that, we came in on the side of the KLA, Osama bin Laden's army conducting ethnic cleansing in Serbia. Before that, Carter backed islamists in Afghanistan - before Russia invaded, with the goal of causing invasion. This foreign policy of deals with the devil must stop. It must be repudiated.
So what of all the Muslims whose families have been in the U.S. for generations, living and working in peace with others? Shall we shun them, or persecute them? Shall we round them up and intern them, as suspected enemies?
If we did that, how would one get good falafel in Ann Arbor?
To be serious, though, I grew up in a region with a concentration of Muslim immigrants from Syria and Lebanon; I went to high school with some of them, and counted one of them as a friend. There's even a mosque sitting out in the midst of cornfields, not far from where I grew up, alongside the junction of interstate highways.
If you're really going to press the case that Islam is inherently, irredeemably corrupt, you're going to have to say something about the status of those communities.
Amen.
The dilemma comes in when defense contractors stop making billions to supply endless war. I think peace through strength is a rational position but yeesh, the destruction of not just human life but of all living things is imperiled by war. How the climate change cultists rationalize bankrolling the war in Ukraine is bizarre. They actually talked about making an all EV tank. It’s imperative that we don’t cause Co2 to escape into the air while we bomb the living s**t out of the earth! It’s so stupid it’s funny. If I hadn’t heard it on the news I would have thought it like an old SNL skit like when it was funny. Yeah that ship sailed at least 15 yrs ago.
https://yourwildlife.org/2015/06/how-islamic-scholars-saved-knowledge-and-science/
So is tolerance (and forced acceptance) of DEI, CRT and all the nonsense it espouses. What is happening all throughout the western world is evil to the core and sadly mimics the cultural war in communist China. We either get this wrecked version of society turned around like now or we can kiss any semblance of individual liberty / freedom goodbye.
Free Julian Assange. Forgive Snowden. Time to start speaking truth about the military industrial complex, the medical industrial complex and the MSM lies.
Gordon, I wish that most Jews felt the same way. Unfortunately, many are still stuck in the early 20th century, and further back to the 5th century, when many Christian leaders accused Jews of "killing Christ". Today, no one that I know subscribes to this stupid accusation. The real fact is that there are many evangelical Christians who support Israel and have affection for their Jewish brethren. True, some of the mainline Christian denominations have taken the secular view of Israel as a violator of human rights, but they are a minority that the Media has chosen to highlight. Take heart! The reality trumps the narrative.
Many Jews in the US are only cultural Jews and openly despise formal religion. They think (along with many types) that they have evolved beyond it and that only the weak minded are faithful.
Yes, Gordon, and we saw some of them occupying the Capitol under the banner "Jews for Palestine." As a Catholic, i find this unspeakably sad.
I think the narrative for Jews has shifted since Oct 7, right? It’s increasingly obvious that Christians are the friends of Jews.
Soooo true and therein lies a
Coalition that needs to be nurtured and used to eradicate barbarianism and elevated civilization via the Judeo-Christian tradition.
Our Messiah is a Jew!! Of course we have your back!
May it ever be thus. May we ever be thus.
100%
That’s true. Bible thumping Christian’s in America are Israel’s biggest supporters.
Yeshua was a faithful Jew, he didn’t come to start a new religion, He came as the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham that God would eventually supply the only real sacrifice for atonement. Until the end of the first century AD, there were more Hebrew followers than gentile.
In the last 10+ years I have read stories of The Spirit (That would be the 3rd Person of the Trinity for you non believers) has been Making A Move in Islam. Millions of Muslims becoming Followers Of Jesus.
European churches say growing flock of Muslim refugees are converting
This article is more than 7 years old
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/05/european-churches-growing-flock-muslim-refugees-converting-christianity
A growing number of Muslim refugees in Europe are converting to Christianity, according to churches, which have conducted mass baptisms in some places.
Reliable data on conversions is not available but anecdotal evidence suggests a pattern of rising church attendance by Muslims who have fled conflict, repression and economic hardship in countries across the Middle East and central Asia.
(Snip)
__________________________________________________________
"But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Romans 5:20-21
I have also heard that there’s a growing underground Christian community in Iran.
Didn’t see your comment, but apparently we heard the same thing!
I know people who live in France that work with refugees and they have numerous church sprouting up in France that all like 90% Iran refugees/migrants.
I was in Iran in 2016-- yes, there is an Armenian Orthodox area, as well as a Jewish area in parts of Iran.
Sadly some of it is false data. Muslims have no problem lying to us Kefirs (non believers), especially to Christians. They lie in any situation to get what they want. They say they’re converting to Christianity and so acquire the status of religious persecution to be granted asylum.
I think it could be both/and. Certainly there are some that are ingenuous and maybe they inflated whatever estimates we have. But I also personally know people who live and work with Irani refugees and they can attest to many who have sincere faith.
Steve on this thread thinks I don’t know what I’m talking about. He/she doesn’t know my background in the Middle East. I lived there for 10 years. It doesn’t make me an expert, not by any means, but I do have some inside knowledge. Like knowing a PHD co-worker who secretly said he wanted to leave the faith but couldn’t because his own family would kill him. That’s just one story of many.
So when Muslims deny their religion imposes their faith, it does say in the qu’aran it’s not compulsory, or will lie in the name of their faith, they conveniently overlook the fact its adherents do coerce people and lying is encouraged if it promotes the faith. In Pakistan, as one example of coercion, men abduct young Hindu girls and force them into marriage to Muslim men. Where’s the global condemnation of this by Muslims. I don’t hear much condemnation of any of this religions heinous acts.
By the way, most Iranians are different in many ways to Arabic speaking, or even non-Arabic speaking Muslims (who are considered lesser Muslims by Arabic speaking Muslims). Iranian citizens are well educated and civilized. It’s their leadership and a certain percentage of their population who are deranged in pursuit of power through their religion. If Iranians say say they’ve converted to Christianity I might have an easier time believing them.
"Sadly some of it is false data. Muslims have no problem lying to us Kefirs (non believers), especially to Christians."
(Once Again) And How Many Muslims do you actually know?
"They lie in any situation to get what they want."
And this makes them different from most people...How? Please don't say taqiyya. You might want to look up the history of that word/concept.
I know because I lived and worked and my children went to school in the Middle East for 10 years!
I know so many Muslims I’ve lost count. Good and bad ones and everything in between. Want names?
And I don’t need to look up Taqiyya because I know the “word/concept” very well. But explain to me why I shouldn’t bring it up? Are you Sunni perhaps?
And I know their (maybe your) religion “makes them different” because it is a religion of submission. It is a religion that claims it is the absolute last word on religion. It is a religion that looks down its nose if you don’t read its one and only book in its language of Arabic, a language that barely anyone in the world reads or speaks. And ultimately if you don’t submit to this religion you are to be enslaved or killed.
It is a religion that does not have “Suicide Bombers”, that’s a Western construct. No, it has only “Martyrs”. And its martyrs are very, very many around the world who go around terrorizing innocents in the name of this “Religion of Peace.” And millions of the adherents to this religion feign horror at the killings, all the while at worst applauding, and at best saying “InshaAllah.
So please, you do some research, you seem to be willfully ignorant and sound like you did not even read the article written by Ms Ali. Try again, yallah!
Yes! At one time several years ago I had heard that the fast-growing subset of believers where refugees from Iran.
Could the fact that such converts tend to show up dead have anything to do with the lack of data? Wishful thinking, perhaps, but I find this more likely than the "moderate Muslim" chimera. (Though the latter have the same ending-up-dead-if-identified problem.)
Many have to hide, because even if they won’t be killed, there could be kicked out of their homes, disowned by their families, could lose their jobs, or be despised by their communities. Even in European counties, there is great community pressure against anyone converting away from Islam.
OR they keep a low profile. Remember in Islam being an Apostate is worse than being an Infidel.
"moderate Muslim" chimera...And just how many Muslims do you know? Understand there is no ONE Islam. Thee s a War inside Islam, we can go back to the 900's, but lets keep it in more modern times, 1925 and the founding of Muslim Brotherhood. Broadly speaking 2 schools of thought. 1. We'll call them The Fundamentalists. They want to return to (say) 700ad, They believe war (violence) is they way to convert The World. The Other "Moderates" who while remaining True to the Faith, want to adjust to the modern world, and convert it by The Way they live. For every Infidel the the Jihadists kill they kill 10 Muslims.
I can recommend some books/people (none of which are Robert Spencer).
Spencer is a good scholar. I have not found any errors in his work.
The problem is he takes a Black & White View of this war.
Yes I just hope she is coming to actually follow Jesus, and not turning to some “spirituality” that only thinks of Jesus of a good teacher, but fails to worship him as the Son of God. As spot on as her article is, it’s hard to discern from this writing alone if she follows Jesus, or some water-down Christian “spirituality” that has become prevalent in the West.
Not sure gatekeeping is the winning strategy... did you read the article? Religion can mean different things to different people, and that’s ok.
Yes I read the article. It’s not gatekeeping to say “this is what Christianity is” and “this is what it is not.” There are basic tenets to Christianity and if you don’t believe them, that’s ok, but then you aren’t really a Christian. Call it whatever you like, but don’t claim the name of Christianity.
So yeah, believe whatever you want to believe, but don’t redefine something. If you don’t believe Jesus is God, then you aren’t a Christian. If you don’t believe Mohammed is a prophet, then you aren’t a Muslim. If you don’t believe in God at all, the you may be an atheist of some variety. This isn’t gatekeeping. Anyone can be a Christian, it’s open to anyone from anywhere at anytime. But there are definitions and basic main tenets to what qualifies as the Christian faith. (Same is true of atheism I might add! You can’t believe in God and be an atheist.) And mudding the waters on this issue deceives people.
What would you call someone who wants to follow the teachings of Jesus, support and defend Christian values, etc., but deep inside doesn’t necessarily think about God in the same way? Jews don’t exclude people like this, and neither do Christian/Catholic churches, school boards, etc., in real life. The whole point of the article is that religion, and the social/cultural unity it fosters, is a positive force that the West needs to tap back into... to turn around and say “yes but only if they adhere to it this way...” is completely counter to that.
First, Jesus taught himself that he is the Son of God and the only way to God. So if you don’t believe he is God, then you are not really following his teachings are you?
Second, if Jesus is not God, then he is a liar because he claimed to be. So is it good to follow the teachings of a liar? No.
There are lots of secondary issues (not salvation issues) that Christians can disagree on and still be in the same boat, if you will. For example, some infant baptism versus adult or “believer’s” baptism.
However, the MAIN thing that makes Christianity what it is, is the belief that Jesus was both God and man, that he came to earth and lives a perfect sinless life, that he died the death we all deserve on the cross, and was raised to life three days latter, defeating death and allowing for reconciliation between God and man, such that anyone who puts their trust in Jesus can be forgiven of their sins and have eternal life with God.
If you don’t believe this, you simply are not a Christian. Call it something different.
I can’t speak to the Jewish religion, except to say that many modern Jews don’t actually follow the teaching of their faith. They can still call themselves Jewish though, because it’s an ethnicity in addition to a religion. Christianity does not have the same ethnic tie.
Christian schools and para-church organizations tend to not require people to affirm what they believe in order to participate and that’s probably ok. However, many churches have requirements that you confirm certain beliefs in order to become a member/partner. Anyone is welcome to attend, but if you join as a member/partner then you affirm that church’s statement of faith, and commit to not teaching anything counter to that on minor issues you may disagree on. But if I went to a church and said, “hey I want to be a partner/member here but I don’t believe that Jesus is the Son of God,” then they would tell me “um, sorry, no.”
There are some mainline denominations that allow this, but these are progressive Christian churches that have completely fallen away from what the Bible teaches, and again, they can believe what they want, but it’s not historic Christianity and they need to own it as such and start calling it something different.
Mostly, I am not disputing the social/cultural unity that religion fosters. But I am hoping that the author is coming to true, historic Christianity, and not some counterfeit. I hope that for her sake.
But also, the key here is that it’s not just ANY religion that she argues the West needs. Because Islam unites people socially and culturally, but look what it has produced. So, yes, there is a sense in the argument that practicing Christianity needs to be true to its core tenets, historic traditions, and its Scripture, and not just some wish-washy believe whatever feels good, because it’s the truth of Christianity and its core tenets that gives rise to the Judeo-Christian values that has made Western civilization so great and successful.
Indeed, the folks that practice progressives Christianity and have fallen away from seeing Jesus as the Son of God tend to be some of the folks that have helped ushers in the insanity of woke ideology!
A religion needs a standard, otherwise it can morph into anything— without a standard, what’s stopping “Christianity” from morphing into something more violent like Islam? The standard for Christianity is the Bible. Unlike Islam, who forces people to “believe the right way,” Christians say, “let’s look to the standard, let’s look at the Bible to see what we should be doing. If we disagree on something, let’s study the Bible together and see what we find.”
So yes, I am concerned about people who call themselves Christians but don’t actually believe in Jesus or the Bible. Because that doesn’t make any sense, and it confuses those who don’t know or understand Christianity.
I am not trying to cause more division, but just call attention to the fact that I see this fake, progressive Christianity that isn’t really Christianity as part of the problem of the West’s “losing its religion” so to say.
Agree to disagree. Religion needs to adapt with the times, more so the other way around... “the times” are a much stronger social /cultural force than Christianity (especially strict versions), is in the West today, so “taking what we can get” is the only pragmatic solution. You are of course free to push for whatever version, but I think your attitude will only continue the decline.
Fred - you are arguing with a person who, quite sincerely, thinks that the lesson of the gospels is "accept the true doctrine" and you will belong to the Kingdom of God. The entire institutional messaging of the churches to which they belong is built on cheap grace. They have been taught relentlessly to say and believe the One True Thing, as if that was the message of God. The Muslims do the same thing.
It is the very essence of what Jesus warned them about, but they cannot see it. Jesus repeatedly and emphatically demanded something deeper and higher and orders of magnitude more difficult. It may be good news, but it's not easy news. I wouldn't want to hear it if I was a Christian. I don't blame it on them but on the church itself, which always call on the individual to abase himself before God but rarely if ever does so itself.
Thanks Chris for the great comment, and for carrying on the discussion better than I could. KB’s is a frustrating attitude that no doubt turns people off and away before they’ve even walked in the door.
Chris, you greatly misunderstand me. The main lesson of the Gospel is that Jesus was God, came to Earth as God-man, lived a perfect life that we all should have lived (but failed because of sin), dead on the cross in our places and was Resurrected to conquer death and forgive our sins such that whoever puts their trust in Jesus can be reconciled to God. If there is anything that is the “One True Doctrine” it’s this. You simply cannot be Christian if you don’t accept this central claim to what Christianity believes. That’s not cheap grace, that is the requirement outlined by God himself of what we need to do to be saved. Faith alone, no works, by grace alone. But you can’t have faith unless you know what you are putting your faith into-- you have to know who Jesus is in order to trust him. So if you don’t believe He is God, and it turns out to be reality that He is God, then you didn’t believe who He said he was. That’s not trust.
Yes, I do believe Scripture is the message of Gospel. But here’s the key thing apart from Muslims. Can Muslims prove their text reliable? Christians have been for centuries questioning then Scriptures, analyzing, studying, many people have tried to “disprove it” as the Word of God only to find themselves converted and believing it to be true! The preponderance of evidence that indicates that the Bible is a reliable document is overwhelming. The Quran does not have that.
But my point was mainly that you there ARE definitions to things and doctrines you must accept to be included as a believer in that religion. Yes this is like Islam. But no one seems to question these definitional requirements when talking about Islam, or Buddhism, or atheism. But all of a sudden, when it comes to Christianity, everyone cries: “How dare you have a definition! How dare you have doctrine!”
It’s just silly. Every system of believe has doctrine that defines what the believes are. Take evolution-- the theory of evolution even has doctrine! If you believe in evolution, then you must believe in certain things that build up the case for evolution, you believe the evidence for it. You can’t say “well I don’t believe any of the scientific evidence for evolution, because I am against doctrine, but I believe in evolution.” That’s just doesn’t make sense. Doctrine is simply a way for a group defining what it is that it believes. And just like it’s perfectly reasonable for the “Women’s Astology Club of Mayberry” (I’m making that up, btw) to say that you can’t join their club unless you believe and practice astrology, it’s perfectly reasonable to have definition of belief in religions. If you don’t believe in the Gospel, you are more than welcome to be a church attender, but you can’t call yourself a Christian. And it makes sense to say so.
Jesus also warns about false teachers, so it’s clear he cared about right doctrine too. That’s why elders are appointed in the church- it’s their job to guard the doctrine.
WTF!! Are you trying to imply that if is walks very slowly and wears a shell and eats cactus it isn't a dog??!! What a gatekeeper!
Hahaha!! Yes I am. How dare I! lol
She says she learns more each week at church. I'll pray for her.
Yes! I am too!
Yes, I take your point. If you are going to be a Christian, the first thing you MUST do, is commit to Christ. She does not talk about this. Yet this is the first thing she should be talking about. Maybe next year she will become something else.
Beautifully said! Amen and Hallelujah!
This is a pragmatic reason to adopt Christianity, which is a good start. But ultimately, Christianity isn't a religion of pragmatic rules and ethics to improve your life or society. It isn't a religion at all, whereby one earns salvation through righteous living. It's primarily good news that Jesus Christ lived the perfect life we couldn't and paid the penalty of our sin, so we wouldn't. It's the trust and celebration of what Christ did on our behalf -- that we are free from having to "earn it." And all of those pragmatic benefits to society come as a result of that freedom.
Ayaan referenced the book, “Dominion” by Tom Holland. He too was an atheist but has become a Christian. Have you read it? I have. Holland’s main point is the teachings of Jesus were revolutionary. We think the way we think, even about ordinary things, because Jesus changed humanity. The poor are just as worthy in God’s eyes as the rich, there is equal value in all lives. Foregiving those who hurt us, loving the sinner (hating the sin), taking care of the least among us. Doing unto others as you would have done unto you. The Greeks and Romans didn’t think this way. Today, even atheists believe in these ideas. They believe in Jesus’ teachings while denying his divinity or even existence. We Christians smile to ourselves over this.
Which is why John Adams said, “Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” Morality and virtue are the foundation of our republic and necessary for a society to be free. This notion animated our Founders and was enshrined in our society until the left began tearing it asunder. I am not particularly religious but I respected and understood that bedrock principle.
One of my favorite quotes. And very pertinent. We have been seeing, over the last couple of decades, what government becomes in the absence of morality and religion. In blue strongholds, people commit crimes with little fear of punishment, because immoral government makes excuses for them.
And because our form of government doesn't - or at least, didn't - prescribe the way citizens should lead their lives and comport their business in the way that other governments do. Yet now our land is planted think with laws and regulations, yet there is more lawlessness than ever. Whether the destruction and denigration of religion was deliberate or not, the chaos spawned is palpable.
It was deliberate. Marxism--which lies at the root of all of this--disavows all religious beliefs. Although they've temporarily made common case with Islam, because both groups despise Western civilization.
Just because the Soviet Union fell doesn't mean their agents didn't do vast harm over that 80 years.
And the immorality of those who commit crimes demonstrates the truth of Adams' remark. God help us because we are rapidly losing the moral and religious part of our citizenry.
'Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.'
Thomas Jefferson
Fear is generally not a good reason to become a Christian. Of course you know that Isaac Newton was a Christian as was CS Lewis. Lewis became a Christian though reason.
One of my all time favorite quotes. This country started out with the most freedom ever and without some morals it gets out of hand quickly. That is where we are now. Some people can't handle the responsibility of a lot of freedom. In modern times they want other peoples help to run their lives. The government comes in and everyone loses freedom. The US was founded on individual rights and taking care of ourselves. Not completely. That is what communities are for. The far left are talking group rights now and it won't work. The further we get away from individual right, the further away we will get from freedom. Once gone, it will not come back.
One of my favorite quotations comes from Jean-Jacques Rousseau, whose writings were also very influential in the founding of this nation. This from Book Four of The Social Contract:
"But I’m wrong to speak of a Christian republic—those two terms are mutually exclusive. Christianity preaches only servitude and dependence. Its spirit is so favourable to tyranny that it always profits by such a régime. Genuine Christians are made to be slaves, and they know it and don’t much mind: this short life counts for too little in their eyes."
A bit later, he tempers this . . . a little:
"tolerance should be given to all religions that tolerate others, so long as their dogmas contain nothing contrary to the duties of citizenship. Anyone who ventures to say: ‘Outside the Church is no salvation’ should be driven from the state."
In an especially tone-deaf move, religious authorities in Paris issued warrants for Rousseau's arrest, after the publication of the Social Contract and another of his works, and he was driven from the state.
Rousseau's experience was of a hierarchical church that was tied to the nobility. It had little, if anything, to do with being a Christian
One of my favorite quotes from CS Lewis, an intellectual if there ever was one: "A man who is eating or lying with his wife or preparing to go to sleep in humility, thankfulness and temperance, is, by Christian standards, in an infinitely higher state than one who is listening to Bach or reading Plato in a state of pride."
Christ gives us hope and peace that is "beyond all understanding." We don't have to prove our worth or work our way into His good grace - it's a gift.
He addresses that aspect of religion separately, referring to it as the religion of the priest. Here, he's talking about Christianity at its cultural core, its essence, as a dogma embraced by individuals.
"Christianity preaches only servitude and dependence. Its spirit is so favourable to tyranny that it always profits by such a régime. Genuine Christians are made to be slaves, and they know it and don’t much mind: this short life counts for too little in their eyes."
Where did he come up with this patent drivel? Slaves? To what? The Christian churches in America were the wellspring of our Revolution.
THIS
I liked this book, it was very interesting, but I don't think Tom Holland is a practicing Christian (yet, I hope). He was raised a Christian, and he does not hide the fact that his ethics and moral principles are Christian, but I don't think he believes that Jesus is the Son of God and has committed his life to following Him (yet, and again, I hope!).
100%.
I used to say I was agnostic, but in RIP (holdover actually) in a discussion with the NCO cadre, they said to own the fact that you don't believe in God so now I say I'm atheist. Even without faith in God, I can't fault the ten commandments or what the church teachings are about how to live a moral life. That said, I was raised Roman Catholic, so my family still thinks I'm going to hell....
I am a lapsed Catholic myself, still searching for my spiritual home. I hold a strong belief in God, just wish I could find a church community that feels like a fit.
I was a lapsed Catholic and then my teenage son decided to join the Catholic Church (which was surprise to me and his Jewish dad). However, we are now all going to Sunday mass because the church we belong to is so wonderful--- the community so diverse-- and I'm loving the traditional music. It has changed my family in so many significant ways-- just kneeling and praying each Sunday. Keep searching, you will find a place where you belong.
Find some fervent Catholics and find out their parish. Or ask a prominent conservative Anglican or Protestant to refer you to the strongest Catholics they know.
UPDATE: Or post your city here and ask for recommendations.
I have friends with the same problem; Their previous church 1) obeyed our blue state governors mandates and didn't give them a physical place to worship during the plandemic and 2) got a new pastor who embraced the notion of "woke" and letting people "choose" who they want to be. It was a very hard struggle for them to find a new community that hadn't changed their beliefs to accommodate society.
Woke is antithetical to Christianity, because Wokeism is based on moral relativism, whereas Christianity is based on fixed moral principles. Take a look at Obama’s recent statement on the Israel/Hamas war: it is replete with “both-sidesism” (i.e., moral relativism).
Chris - the "church" as it were, is run by humans and thereby ultimately flawed. However, there are hundreds of fantastic churches out there that will bring you in, love you and treat you like a brother. You'll be part of a community that has your salvation as its highest priority!
Keep looking, it will be worth your search.
I am a lapsed catholic too because the catholic church itself lapsed. I have sworn off organized religion altogether. After 2000 years I believe they are all corrupt. I decided to live my life as closely as I can to Jesus teachings and to be the best person I can be. When I die, we will see what happens lol.
It was a Cosmos, by Carl Sagan, that contained this sentiment, but I'm sure I'm not quoting it exactly, "An agnostic is just an athiest without the courage of his convictions." But the dialog went on after that point, and genuinely defended the position of agnostics. Reading that was, believe it or not, an important step on my faith journey.
In retrospect, that was likely the singular most important conversation I had in my life. After the Army, whether at school or work, it taught me to ask questions when I didn't know something or was unsure of the answer. It also taught me that more respect was afforded when I had the courage of my own convictions and stood firm on those beliefs. I still don't know if there is a God, but I don't believe there is. I've told friends many times that they are lucky they have FAITH - that they "know" there is a reward for them in the afterlife.
Heaven isn't a reward for faith it is home for the faithful.
Unless he has announced a change recently, Tom Holland is an atheist and a “cultural Christian”, meaning he believes that Christianity as a historical force permeates the Western worldview, including Enlightenment values. Christians who believe in an existent God of course assert you can’t have Western values without the literal truth of Christianity. Holland has said, we don’t know yet. There are open and prosperous nations that are non-religious, such as Scandinavian countries and Japan. Whether their experience can be replicated other places is unknown.
Whether their experience can be SUSTAINED beyond a generation or two is also unknown.
I am reading Tom Holland's book now. Very interesting.
Thank you, Maureen. I will get a copy of "Dominion" for myself.
Not meaning to pick a fight, but those teachings you reference above are all straight out of Torah, what you would call the "Old Testament", and part of Jesus's basic education as a Jew.
The dissemination of those Jewish values to the wider world through the vehicle of Christianity has sometimes obscured the source material, but let's give credit where it's due.
"Turning the other cheek" can safely be said to be his innovation. We have a lot of source material to the value of humility, and "vatranut" or giving in, certainly to accepting insult without responding, but we draw the line at being physically attacked, which is where it becomes a mitzva to defend ourselves.
Your point about atheists is well taken - in a society built on what many call Judeo-Christian ethical principles, atheists can indulge in their luxury beliefs without too much consequence. But once those principles are so undermined and young people not raised with them, then all bets are off.
In my opinion, Christianity deemphasized the 613 rules of the Torah and offered salvation to the Greeks, Romans, anyone. Paul and the other disciples spread out all over the world, seeking to bring many to Jesus.
I don’t remember the citation, but there is a place where Jesus spoke of all food being clean for consumption. I also can’t recall any time Jesus spoke of Mary Magdelene being unclean and needing to isolate herself. You see my point about all those rules obscuring the 10 Commandments and the golden rule.
"But ultimately, Christianity isn't a religion of pragmatic rules and ethics to improve your life or society." Au contraries'! Christianity at its best is summed up in two profoundly pragmatic and efficacious rules: "Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself." This is a restatement of Hillel the Great's reduction of Judaism to a non-Jew, famously: "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation of this—go and study it!"
That's not a summation of Christianity; that's a summation of the Law (see Matthew 22:36-40). The summation of Christianity is that mankind (which is in a fallen state of sin) can never perfectly keep the Law, which is why Jesus' life, death and resurrection were necessary.
No Jew ever asserted a Jew could keep the Law either. That's a strawman. Everything Jesus demonstrated is in the Torah, handed down to modern time in the Oral Torah redactions.
There's a famous question about the Jew and the Torah: "Does the Torah keep the Jew or does the Jew keep the Torah?" For brevity sake, the conclusion is the Torah keeps the Jew.
The atoning work of Christ's death and resurrection is Christianity's unique, foundational truth-claim; certainly the truth to Christian believers. At the same time, Jesus asserted in Matthew 5 that heaven and earth would pass away before the smallest letter of the Torah would be removed -- so since the earth is still here, the Torah is still here and absolutely in effect. In fact, better a millstone be tied around the neck of anyone who taught otherwise and be thrown into the sea. So whatever the atonement of Christ accomplished, it did not abolish the Law (the Written Torah) or the Prophets (the Oral Torah -- where we get the teachings of a Messiah and the resurrection, for example). This is not the place, of course, to carry on this sort of thread, wishing you all the best.
Thank you for the thoughtful response.
We both agree that the Law is still in effect. Jesus basically said there are two ways someone can be saved from God's wrath: 1) keep the law perfectly yourself [Matthew 19:16-22], or 2) rely on God to do this for you [Matthew 19:23-26] through Jesus [John 14:6].
In Romans 1-3, Paul meticulously spells out why the first way is impossible for us (as you've also said Jews believe). Which leaves us with the second option.
I do think that, on an article about someone's conversion to Christianity, a discussion of what Christians believe is apropos. Happy to discuss further.
"So whatever the atonement of Christ accomplished..."
Matthew 5:17 - He did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it!
Still learning what this means, but thought I would add it here. Thanks!
Someone explained it to me as simply: The law says do not kill, steal, commit adultery, etc. Jesus took the law further and concerns the heart- do not want to kill, do not want to steal, do not want to commit adultery.
Oh, how terribly our own country has failed with just these 3 of God’s laws.
Even further than wanting to commit adultery— if you look upon another with listing your heart, you have transgressed the law and sinned.
Yes, the Jews of Jesus’s day followed the letter of the law but not always the heart or spirit of the law. Jesus asks MORE of us, not less. He asks us to follow the spirit of the law.
Problem is, we can’t do this because our hearts are wicked and deceitful above all things. Our sin nature makes even our “good works” or following the letter of the law (“well I didn’t technically lie… I didn’t technically steal….etc.) essentially dirty and unrighteous.
That’s why Jesus’s atonement on the cross matter so much. He takes the payment of sin upon himself so that we can be remade under His righteousness. We can receive hearts that then want to follow God’s law. Until Christ returns again, or we meet him in Heaven, we will still grapple with this sin nature. But the good news is that whatever parts of our heart that still desire sin, we can repent and be forgiven, knowing that Jesus paid the penalty of our sin under the Law and that God can now look upon us as “righteous.”
I couldn't agree more with your reply. How terribly I have personally failed at these, as well! Thanks be to God who made a Way for all of us to come to Him.
And unlike Islam, the commandments to love God and one another are not the means to salvation; instead, they are the result of salvation. We can love God and our neighbors because we are already saved. THAT is the difference.
Thanks for spawning a great thread
Rosey, I have to disagree with your view on the "rules and regulations" that undergird Christianity. Just as the Muslim Hadith proscribe what Muslims should believe and practice, so, too, do the various commentaries of the Church Fathers, so-called, define the practice and beliefs of Christianity. But, when push comes to shove, the words and actions of Jesus are what is foundational in Chistian belief and practice. Even though it is Jewish in its roots, the admonition to love God with your whole heart, and your neighbor as yourself, is STILL the gold standard.
Fair enough, and we probably agree. I'm simply pointing out Jesus quoted, albeit a restatement, one of the two master rabbis of his day, Hillel. Hillel the Great died when Jesus as about seven years old, so they were contemporaries of sorts. The other sage was Rabbi Shammai.
There's a marvelous passage in the Talmud regarding how different sages reduced the Law and the Prophets (the Torah) to the simples form. Hillel was bested by Habakkuk's "The Just shall live by faith" -- but that was a reduction too far.
"He has showed you, oh man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? But to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God." This is also the essence of Christian belief.
I'm not a Christian, but I absolutely agree with you that the words and actions of Jesus - I would maybe expand it a little and say "the life" of Jesus - are foundational. The most crystalline expression of that call, for me, has always been the place in the gospels where Jesus tells his followers to "seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness" and the rest will follow. It's such a radical moral imperative. I couldn't do it myself - or wouldn't, more accurately - but I think a great deal of nonsense and confusion in the modern world with respect to religious faith would be swept away if people noticed that the enterprise of a life it to live it properly, not describe it properly. This should be obvious, but it isn't to most people.
Certainly you have more than a passing knowledge of the subject matter, and I thank you for your non-believer support.
I understand what you are trying to say, and it’s not altogether wrong. However, I would argue that HOW you love God is not following a set of pragmatic rules but developing a Relationship with God. (Now of course, as we love God, we will want to follow his rules, especially when we recognize that His way is better than our way— but following His rules doesn’t earn anything, and certainly doesn’t earn His love for us.) I think that’s a key distinction to make, especially since in Islam, you can follow all the rules correctly and then Allah can changed his mind and send you to Hell.
Show me verse of scripture where God refers to His people as “christians.” Back in the day observers referred to those born again as having Christ in them--Christians. God calls us sons and daughters, beloved, saved, joint heirs with Jesus Christ.
We are also referred to as all of the things you mentioned 😊
Read Acts 11:26:
“and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.”
I’ve been a Christian for many years and I didn’t learn this until later in life.
I didn't read this as her reason for adoption Christianity, but more as a "perk". She explicitly said she couldn't handle the spiritual nothing-ness of New Atheism. (" I have also turned to Christianity because I ultimately found life without any spiritual solace unendurable—indeed very nearly self-destructive.") She could have turned to another religion, back to Islam, or liberal spirituality, but she instead turned to Christianity. I think we should reserve judgment on her faith unless we know her whole story. I will be praying for this woman and the impact she can make for God's Kingdom!
Agreed. I did not judge her faith at all. She herself admits to being a new Christian and learning more and more at church on Sundays. I am rooting for her.
Read “Infidel” and “Nomad” to better understand her.
Will do - this is my first time reading her work or even hearing her name. Color me intrigued, now. Thanks for the suggestions!
Enjoy her journey :)
Yes as an interested observer I was waiting for her to speak about her inner journey but the article left out this, the most important part, leaving me to wonder if this was just the best choice at the buffet or if a more mystical experience had occurred but she wasn’t willing to be vulnerable about it.
I am also curious about her inner journey - but, I will put forth a third option, based on reading between the lines of this essay. (" I have also turned to Christianity because I ultimately found life without any spiritual solace unendurable—indeed very nearly self-destructive... Of course, I still have a great deal to learn about Christianity. I discover a little more at church each Sunday")
I think she may have found herself in an untenable position spiritually as an atheist. She may have logically chosen to pursue Christianity because of the sense it makes of the world, but maybe she's having her heart and her mind opened through seeking Jesus through this journey. As a Christian myself, I believe the Holy Spirit is the one to lead her there, and He works in mysterious ways sometimes. For some people, their conversion is a Damascus Road event which, as it did for Paul, changes EVERYTHING about their life all at once. For others, it is a slow burn or an opening of a flower, as Jesus told the scribe in Mark 12:34, "You are not far from the Kingdom of God", or like Lydia, maybe the Lord will open (or has already opened) her heart as she listens to the Gospel during church (Acts 16:14-15).
I hope we learn more about this woman's journey! I think you're right, though, the essay focused much more on the secondary effects of her conversion instead of the conversion itself. I'm interested in the latter, too.
My favorite comment so far. I think we are all on the path but everyone treads it at their own pace. I like that.
Strongly agree. What you've described as "secondary effects" I might call the political ramifications that are important for a person of her standing to communicate in a public forum at the earliest possible time. She knows that others need to know what God is doing in her life.
Some of those others, like me, are Christian believers. Others are athiests, or go-along-get-along middle-roaders, or whatever.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a prominent political and intellectual leader. It would be distracting for her to make it 'all about me' in the sense of the more intimate personal aspects of her walk up that pathway to a personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
I just don't see that in her (quite long) description. She states more or less that her choice was strictly a pragmatic one.
Maybe I'm reading too far in between the lines, but the parts I quoted seem more spiritually motivated than pragmatic or cultural. There may be a great deal of pragmatism in this essay, but I'm just saying that we shouldn't assume that just because her inner spirituality is not the main theme of this essay, it doesn't exist. (I actually think the lead-in question of "Can you choose religion/faith on purely pragmatic reasoning?" or whatever they said kind of sets the reader up to read through that lens.)
It just shows you that two readers can read the same essay and come away with different views - looking forward to hearing more of her story as this unfolds!
From my observations of Ali, it appears that she is a very rational person who makes her choices methodically. I don't think she would be a warming of the heart Wesleyan but someone who gets converted by more of a step by step this makes sense way. Luckily we all can approach belief differently as God made us all very different.
By Jove, you've got it! (I think.) My journey from cradle Catholic to Nothing to Christian occurred foolishly to nothing and brick-by-brick back up. No Road to Emmaus 2x4 between the running lights. No sane person would want to read about it.
She may be on a road to conversion like CS Lewis was. Tolkien led him on that road, with rational discussion but eventually it was the Holy Spirit who brought him over the last step.
I have said for quite some time that one's journey is personal. We are each of us unique so why wouldn't our discovery of spirituality also be unique. And All Knowing all loving God would touch our lives differently both based on our needs and the needs of others. The important part is the striving. To get to the right place and continue along the path.
Believe or disbelieve whatever you choose. That is a deeply personal matter. You may do your best to persuade me, but you have no right to impose your beliefs on me or anyone else.
This is a self-defeating argument. You are literally trying to impose your belief on me that people should not impose their beliefs on others. We all advocate for the things we believe in all the time. That's the freedom we have in America. Whether it's expressing beliefs that anti-Semitism is wrong, or advocating for a political candidate, or supporting a law that outlaws some action. We all believe things and try to convince others to believe the same. Why would you discriminate against religious topics?
Look, just stop. If you keep up this line of reasoning you’re going to collapse the entire façade of progressivism’s privileged position.
LOL
Yes I hope and pray that her faith is or becomes true in the sense of worship Jesus as God. I hope and pray that it’s not the water-down “spirituality” of many mainline churches that like Jesus’s teachings on love but ignore who He is as God.
True that we are free from having to "earn" it, and require grace. But lived faith requires our use of free will to practice holiness and righteousness each day, and seek the Church's gift of the sacraments to maintain and right our spiritual orientation.
This is a difference between Catholic teaching and Protestant teaching. Catholic teaching says you need to bring some of your own righteousness to the table, while Protestant teaching says our righteousness is like "filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6) and "rubbish" (Romans 3:8-9) when it comes to our justification, and it's only Christ's righteousness that saves us.
I'm aware of the ahistorical Protestant view on justification, and its misunderstanding of the nuanced, longstanding Church teaching. The reality is the views are closer in practice than most will acknowledge. Protestants still believe one must practice holiness in order to demonstrate actual faith and belief in Christ. Their view gets weird when the Reformers advocate that mankind is entirely incapable of moral behavior, and that every single act of moral behavior is due to the Holy Spirit's will and not our own (which isn't free). We are basically demons in that worldview. And it's not mine.
I hope to never understand the feeling of people wanting to kill you for your views, but history shows how easily that can happen. You are a brave and remarkable woman. I have a friend who is reinforcing her Jewish faith in light of current events and we both agree that the rock of both our faiths is necessary to move forward in this world.
I am so proud of The Free Press for sharing this. I hope Ayaan experiences the fullness of a life of faith as a Christ follower! I agree with her assessment of the global situation. As she grows in belief, may she know peace and have the very genuine hope in the future both here and in death.
I read your book Infidel over 9 years ago. I loved you then, and now, reading this, I love you more. You are so brave. And welcome to Christianity. I hope to meet you someday.
It was one of the most influential books I have read.
The world has been and always will be a set of tribes within tribes that are held together by their individual and group stories. Religions and their stories are one of the most powerful and have directed the lives of millions of people for thousands of years. The power of their story sustains them. The American story is unique. It brought together many different tribes of people from around the world through a shared belief in human rights and freedom that has led to incredible success and a way of life for Americans. Our story is no longer cherished and is fading for various reasons. As we lose our story, we will no longer be willing to fight for our way of life. The October Hamas attack on Israel is a direct attack on their very existence, and Israelis have responded that their story is worth fighting for. Hopefully, America will stand with them and fight if necessary. Otherwise, we will fail together.
It was not only a "direct attack on [Israel's] very existence; it was an attack on humanity and decency, itself. Which is why so many of us say back to the barbarians "we're all Jews here."
Thank you Bruce!🇮🇱🇺🇸
As with Skinny, I thank you profusely for having our back, as we have yours.
"The American story is unique. It brought together many different tribes of people from around the world through a shared belief in human rights and freedom that has led to incredible success and a way of life for Americans."
I wonder what America would be like if the Mayflower was filled with Muslims.
Sly TK. Very sly. I like it.
They likely would have wiped out the native peoples . . . Oh wait.
The early kings of England are credited with uniting the tribes. Britain gave the world the example of the system of parliamentary authority. The United States then took things from there. The dysfunctional countries of the world today are so because of tribalism. Tribalism is the great evil. We here in Canada promote multiculturalism, a form of tribalism. It doesn't work. Newcomers don't respect it. They bring their old wars to us here in the new world.
I could not agree with you more! I always loved the Canadian idea (of the 70’s and 80’s) that we were building a mosaic where people from various places could keep their cultures and traditions, yet still be joined together as citizens of a tolerant and accepting country. However, this idea only worked when people were committed to respecting other cultures. As our country has become more diverse we seem to have more immigrants arriving who have prejudices and grudges towards other groups that they do not want to give up. Some of these newcomers do not necessarily want to embrace Canadian values of tolerance and respect.
All of our major political parties seem laser focussed on increasing immigration by huge numbers despite the wishes of most Canadians.This is in spite of issues such as lack of housing etc. They must be aware of the issues related to high levels of immigration happening in Europe right now (such as increased rates of sexual violence against women or incidents of anti semitism) but they are willfully blind to the fact that these issues will happen more and more in Canada if we continue on the path we are on.
Stories like this is why the Free Press is such a gem.
Ayaan..I have watched and respected your bravery for years. As a practicing Catholic I am thrilled that you’ve chosen to become a practicing Christian! You are absolutely right about us losing our way due to the rush to embrace secularism in the European tradition. I pray people open their eyes before it’s too late. God Bless you and keep you well!
A successful society needs both religion and secularism: the former for people, the latter for public institutions that by law serve everyone.
I like that...don't think I had heard it articulated that way before.
Thank you, Sghoul, much appreciated.
Gave me something to think about. Thanks.
You're very welcome, and thanks for this nice note.
May her courage and CLARITY be contagious.
Praise God.
As a former atheist and now Catholic priest, this resonates completely. Amen and Amen!
Hirsi Ali has been fighting the fight against darkness for decades. With real skin in the game. Her voice is one that needs to be heard loudly and widely across America and the world. Let us not forget that her voice was cancelled by many colleges who today preach about the right to free speech. Perhaps they would like to now invite her now to address their students to hear "her truth" AKA THE TRUTH
Ayaan and Bari both give me hope. Bari for her publishing a Christian essay and Ayaan for her pursuit of the Truth where ever it leads and it lead her into several changes, profound changes of her heart and mind. Alexander Solzhenitsyn had a similar change from Communism to Christianity and he gave a famous Commencement Address at Harvard University June 8, 1978 at Harvard. He began his address with "truth eludes us as soon as our concentration begins to flag, all the while leaving the illusion that we are continuing to pursue it. This is the source of much discord. Also, truth seldom is sweet; it is almost invariably bitter. A measure of bitter truth is included in my speech today, but I offer it as a friend, not as an adversary." He went on to state: "A decline in courage may be the most striking feature that an outside observer notices in the West today. The Western world has lost its civic courage, both as a whole and separately, in each country, in each government, in each political party, and, of course, in the United Nations. Such a decline in courage is particularly noticeable among the ruling and intellectual elites, causing an impression of a loss of courage by the entire society. There remain many courageous individuals, but they have no determining influence on public life." May God give us more courageous individuals and leaders. Ayaan, thank you for speaking the Truth publicly to the Powerful.
I'm a big admirer of your writing and your work and your bravery--this conversion surprises me. It's as if you equated atheism with nihilism, if that's not putting the thought too strongly. The values of Christianity (at least since the Reformation!) have been increasingly in line with Enlightenment values: love of life, individual liberty--many democratic values coalesce with Judeo-Christian traditions. But it's always been enough for me to feel the purpose of life is to love it and live it! I always thought of Jesus as a great psychologist and the King James translation of the Bible as a fount of poetry, interesting stories, and wisdom. I'm trying to wrap my head around someone with your enormous intellectual and moral vision--not to mention your sense of humor--believing in the virgin birth, Jesus as not just a man but "the word made flesh" literally and the resurrection. I'm thinking--really? Are you okay? I don't mean to sound rude, but maybe rediscovering your sense of not just humor and the human comedy, but of the absurd might be the way to go in these dark times. Maybe a dash of Bertolt Brecht and Hannah Arendt instead of church?
“I don't mean to sound rude, but maybe rediscovering your sense of not just humor and the human comedy, but of the absurd might be the way to go in these dark times.”
I’m pretty sure you did mean to be rude! Why is this so hard to believe? Happens all the time, and during these dark times, probably more than we think. He is the way, the truth and the life. Check it out!
Honestly don't mean to be rude, Linda. Just meant to convey that I was surprised. I just have a different way of seeing things and I don't see the incompatability of religion with me as a plunge into a dark abyss. It is possible to live a moral, ethical and happy life without having religious beliefs. And it is not that I'm against them--I'm for anything that helps. In one of my favorite novels--Louise Fitzhugh's The Long Secret--there's an elderly preacher who says, "Religion is just a tool to get through life--and if it works, it's a good tool. If it doesn't, it's not." That tool worked wonderfully for my husband. Doesn't work for me.
Melissa, you need to realize where your moral code has come from. It did not just pop into your brain, ex nihilo, it came from SOMEWHERE. If it came from Judeo-Christian beliefs, then fine. Admit it as something valuable that you have incorporated into your life. But your moral code is not original to your own reasoning.
Yes, that was my point exactly! I'm sure my moral code derives from a Judeo-Christian tradition--I hoped I'd made that clear.
Really. Maybe a dash of Bertolt Brecht and Hannah Arendt instead of church?"? Those are foundational resources? It is often clear that athiests above a certain age are fish who don't know that they're wet.
I love your way of phrasing this.
Faith in Christ is a gift from God. It is a divine and deepening relationship. It is hard to understand or appreciate outside of Christ. You make it sound like a shovel or hoe in your shed. It is so much more. Jeremiah 29:13- try seeking him earnestly, patiently, sincerely.
You said it similarly to what I did below…only much more concise. Appreciate this.
“Maybe a dash of Bertolt Brecht and Hannah Arendt instead of church?” Sounds petty rude and condescending to me. Mockery of church going people...so tolerant and civil.
There was CDS (and JDS!) long, long, before TDS.
To me, it sounded as if she wanted her to ditch Christianity in favor of ironic detachment.
I understand what you’re saying here, and don’t really have a problem with it. That’s not how I took the comment, so thanks for sharing what you meant. I don’t understand why people judge those who convert to Christianity…as if it’s so shocking. It can happen at any time. I believe the son of one of the leaders of Hamas also converted to Christianity. I get really bothered by people who make fun of Christianity, yet I can also see why. It’s not so easy to believe in Jesus and what he did. That’s why Christianity is built on faith. It’s the only answer to get through such difficult times in life…that there’s something more after life.
Yes but it’s not a blind faith.
We can’t prove anything, but there is LOTS of evidence for the existence of God, for the reliability of Scripture, for the Resurrection.
Mere Christianity by CS Lewis - highly recommended as your next read! :)
I love C.S. Lewis!
I think that a poor way to look at Christianity-- as just a tool. Who cares if a tool is helpful if it’s not true? I think Muslims would argue that Islam is a “good and helpful tool,” but we have seen what they do with that tool.
Take astrology for example. People who follow astrology find it helpful for their lives. But we actually have good evidence that astrology is all hogwash. It’s not true. It’s not reliable. Why anyone would continue to pursue astrology when it so evidently doesn’t even accurately describe reality boggles my mind. But some people find it “helpful” to follow a lie. Is that what you want to do though, follow a lie because it feels good?
You need to be asking-- is Christianity true? Are its claims true? Not asking if it’s helpful. Helpful doesn’t always mean good.
I'm just musing here, and several people feel offended by my comparison of Christianity to "a tool"--but I mean that pragmatically, not negatively. The religion doesn't have to be true for people to get something useful out of it--hope, for example. T. S. Eliot observed, "Humankind cannot bear very much reality." We all have our illusions. And now I'm really in trouble, having suggested Christianity is one of those illustions. But there's lots I like about it! Great values! My husband was a Christian! I just don't go for the mystical aspects--in other words, I go for the values (which infuse the Western tradition) but not the faith.
I understand, I know you mean no offense. But I hope to challenge your thinking a bit here. Because people can argue for a lot of bad things in the name of them being “helpful.”
Here’s an illustration that might help. (Shout-out to J. Warner Wallace for this one).
Let’s pretend that you sincerely believe that you are sick and that Advil will help you. But let’s say I’m a doctor and I figure out you have tuberculosis. What you need to cure TB is a specific antibiotic medication, not Advil. I could still give you Advil, at your persistence, and it might even help you a bit. You may even have “hope” because it maybe momentarily you’ll feel better. But without the antibiotic, you still have TB. And you may even die from untreated TB, so any “hope” you have is a false hope. I would be a terrible doctor to not try to convince you of the truth— that Advil may be “helpful” but it isn’t the true cure.
A “helpful” or even “hopeful” illusion doesn’t actually help anyone in the same way Advil doesn’t actually help a TB patient. It’s one thing to be misguided or misinformed, but one should not live by lies, no matter how “helpful” those lies are. (Case-in-point: see the damage the whole transagenda is causing people.)
I’m glad there is lots you like about Christianity, but I just challenge you to judge Christianity based on scrutinizing if you think it’s true, not on whether you think it’s helpful. Christians don’t have a relationship with Jesus as a means to an end (as a tool) but knowing Jesus is sort both the means and the ends. (And truly, as Scripture says itself, if Christianity isn’t true, then Christians are to be most pitied of all people! And I think this speaks to this idea that there is no sense in holding hope for a tool that IS just a delusion, no matter how helpful that delusion may feel.)
"It is possible to live a moral, ethical and happy life without having religious beliefs. "
So how do you learn what moral, ethical and happy are without a Judeo-Christian belief system? Humans are not naturally moral, ethical or happy.
You could do an endless regression of Christianity > Judaism > ancient Israelites >>>>> to two tribes of cave-apes agree to not kill each other.
Parents?
Melissa, it’s called faith. And I find it insulting that you basically insinuate that if someone is smart, they can’t possibly believe in God. If you don’t want to believe, and/or don’t have faith, that’s fine. Just don’t knock other people for it.
I write all of this bc it’s my experience, too. I know it doesn’t make sense but it’s bc her conversion is a transformation of the heart and mind. Jesus Christ does that...That is the evidence. I have had a lasting inner peace that nothing else has ever given me, even in the midst of pain and struggle. I have hope. Ones life is radically changed and you are a better version of yourself in the way you think, act and treat others. Jesus is the remedy for our sin, for life. He has done that for me.
What helped me grow in my faith was studying Jesus Christ Himself by reading the Gospels. The KJV was always hard for me to understand. I gained more understanding with the Amplified and the ESV translations 😊.
She never even mentions Jesus in her essay. It was a pragmatic choice for her (which is fine).
"maybe rediscovering your sense of not just humor and the human comedy, but of the absurd might be the way to go in these dark times"
There's an old military saying, "there are no atheists in foxholes". Maybe you need to experience real dark times, the kind where your imminent death is all but certain. If somehow you survive, perhaps you'll understand what the author of that saying meant.
I prefer dying Catherine's last words in Hemmingway's "A Farewell to Arms."
"It's just a dirty trick."
I appreciate your bafflement, but your condescension towards Hirsi, someone whose intellect and seriousness you admire, is understandable if unwarranted. Becoming a Christian has about as much to do with belief in the sense you mean it (virgin birth, resurrection, etc.) as being an American has to do with believing George Washington never told a lie. You’re welcome to believe these things literally, but they are irrelevant, either to being a Christian, in the first case, or American in the second case. The tragedy is not that you don’t know this, it’s that very few people who call themselves Christian do either. The God available to the followers of Jesus does not care what you believe or to which party or religious entity you belong. This is very very bad news for people who think they are believers because they adhere to doctrinal claims. Given that they are confused it is understandable that people who have not taken up the path shown by Jesus would be confused too. It’s ok - you don’t need to worry. Faith (what she has adopted) and belief (your basically materialist representation of religion and faith) are essentially different things.
All interesting questions worth discussing at length, preferably over a good meal. But perhaps what Ayaan says is true - that Atheists sometimes can't see the wood for the trees.
When things look very bleak indeed, the long perspective helps--I like Shakespeare's observation in King Lear: "The worst returns to laughter."
Couldn't agree more.
You are so kind.
Cut her some slack on her conversion, please. As any new believer would attest, and as Ayaan herself has stated, there is a lot to learn and to take in with a Christian belief system. Surely, over time, she will coalesce her search and learning into something that is practicable in her life. We ALL go through this process, even if we are NOT Christian.
Also glaringly missing from all of this is that Jesus preached damnation (whatever you think damnation means) to anyone who doesn't hold a certain thought in their mind!
To look at just the loving parts of the Bible is to demonstrate clearly how very man-made it all is.
We have the philosophies as humans, to live well. I find it sad if it is really true that the only way to make humans follow philosophies is to place them into a religion.
(In in the case of Christianity, a religion that teaches we need a "salvation" or we face eternal damnation. It takes pretzel-like twists -- that I used to do a lot of -- to say that it's anything else at core.)
The Enlightenment values of Christianity were there at the very beginning of Christianity, just got lost in the power-grabbing that became the Catholic Church. The Reformation took Christianity back to the Bible-- back to what was written centuries ago. All of your Enlightenment values COME from Christian thinkers, not the other way around.
But logically, atheism should lead to nilihsm. If nothing created the whole universe for no reason, if you are just a clump of cells that evolved from random chance, then you have no purpose, nothing does. Only an honest atheist can admit that this is the logically consistent position to have if you don’t believe in a Creator God. For most, that’s too much of a untenable position to actually live in, so they do what you do and “make their own purpose and meaning” but this is aligned with humanism than pure atheism.
Melissa, I thought your comment contained the most intellect of all the comments read thus far. I agree with your insights! I was actually raised Christian, dabbled w/ atheism but left it asap due to its nihilism (which write in my book). I wholeheartedly agree with you that we need to look at Jesus more as a philosopher vs "word made flesh." I also argue that this perspective of "word made flesh" is the result of the Roman Empire, which we now call, the Roman Church.
I have an entire series of these topics called "Spiritual Sundays" but I think you'd resonate with this one called: "Why Gnosticism is the Christianity that's needed today."
https://unorthodoxy.substack.com/p/why-gnosticism-is-the-christianity#details
Looking forward to your thoughts whenever you get a second
As a lapsed atheist myself, I struggle with seeing Jesus as the Word but moreover realize how crucial his and Christian philosophy is, how helpful it's been for me. I'm struggling.
We are all struggling. May you feel His presence and His love
Thanks for this comment David! Check out my podcast and my works as well. What's really helped me is understanding the historical context in which the Bible was written, the political moves behind it, so forth and so more. Once we understand this context, we're able to see it for what it is and the philosophical lessons it provides. But if we're not able to see all the context, we get half the picture -- which leads to all sorts of ideas.
Hope this helps and I recommend my podcast here as an intro to the topic:
https://unorthodoxy.substack.com/p/why-gnosticism-is-the-christianity#details
I was involved in evangelical Christianity for decades until I started acknowledging doubts based on incongruities in the Bible and learning more about its origins. In my resulting exploration I discovered the gnostic gospels (gospel of Thomas, etc.) and it was like a revelation. But it led to me being thrown out of my church, where I was a Sunday school teacher, after I was honest about my discoveries. All my Christian friends abandoned me and were told not to speak to me. Would like to go back to Church, but where does a gnostic go?
Many thanks for your thoughts and your response, Franklin. I think not being raised as a Christian makes it difficult for me to grasp stories that would seem reasonable if I had heard them as a child from my parents. But I didn't, so now the ideas that a virgin gave birth and a man rose from the dead just seem to me like science fiction. But being someone with no religion doesn't mean having no faith in humanity or no love of moral and ethical values. My husband was a very devout Catholic--was raised in a region steeped for centuries in Catholicism--and we had all the same beliefs in general; I just can't go along with the religious stories because they seem supernatural to me.
Maybe your just "having the same beliefs" means you do ultimately believe in the big picture, and that believing in the magical stories are irrelevant to that? I have some of the same perspective as you and finally just concluded the verity of Jesus's teaching to "Believe in God; believe also in me. [as] in my Father's house are many rooms." Just a thought. But then it just works for me.
‘Take what you need and leave the rest”
Again, if it makes for a better person, then take it and move on.
The idea of the dead man being raised comes from Judaism (Elijah and the widow's son) and the idea of the virgin birth comes from the Virgin Goddesses and their hero sons in ancient religions like the Greek and the HIndu. I find those stories less problematic than the Christian idea (neither from Judaism nor from ancient religions) that non-believers go to an eternal hell. That is why I am a Hindu, not a Christian
Just admit where your moral code has come from. It was NOT from your own intellect. It has its roots in an existing belief system that you don't actually believe in. I have no problem with that, for if a person's belief system makes for a better society, and a better person, then I am all for it!
Human morality has deeper roots than any religious faith or written law. It arose with us out of our early prehistory as social primates, then was refined and extended when eventually we were able to think things through and write them down.
The Golden Rule - the basic impulse of reciprocity - is not an invention of Christianity, but part of our common human heritage that pervades cultures around the world. It takes different forms, is subject to different interpretations, but the core of it is the same.
You're 100% right and I can echo those statements. Me being raised in the faith from before I could talk made these stories 10x more real. It was later on, as an adult, once I looked upon these stories again with fresh eyes that I could then decipher fact from fiction.
My argument is that all religions say the same thing. However, these religions have become dogmatic for political control. Once you separate the politics and the metaphors from the religions, you're able to gleam from them, their true essence and value :)
Here's another article on the concept of LOVE which you may appreciated:
https://unorthodoxy.substack.com/p/love-the-ultimate-weapon
Do you ever post without promoting yourself? In the flow of this conversation it is almost as distasteful as a snarky entry from ComProf.
"I wholeheartedly agree with you that we need to look at Jesus more as a philosopher vs "word made flesh." I also argue that this perspective of "word made flesh" is the result of the Roman Empire, which we now call, the Roman Church."
I get your point about the opening statement of John's gospel (the Word made flesh) with the Roman Catholic silliness of the literal transubstantiation of the communion element. It was always a metaphor for consuming God's word (the Torah), as the intimate Jewish Torah commentaries indicate.
Concomitantly, the Christian text (Matthew 5:17-19) affirms Jesus of Nazareth did not come to abolish the Law (the Written Torah) and the Prophets (the Oral Torah) but to demonstrate (fulfill) them -- to be the Torah made flesh is, to me, a compelling argument. The fundamental point of Judaism is to bring Heaven to Earth by elevating this world toward Godliness by revealing God through connective obedience to God's instructions presented at Sinai. These are the Laws of Noah to the world and the enumerated mitzvot to the Light to the Nations, the Jews. Jesus restated Hillel's reduction as a positive -- limitlessly creative construction.
Please don’t reduce the consecration (the most sacred moment of a Catholic mass) to “silliness”. If that is your belief then so be it. It is condescending and offensive to me that you would use that term on a public thread where you know you are among Catholics. As Christians, for the sake of unity and peace we should respect each others rituals.
Mia culpa! Mia culpa! I beg your forgiveness. I was flippantly insensitive. Me who is on his face beholding the grandeur of the Sistine Chapel and St. Peter's basilica.
We may have a lot in common here! One of the questions I look to discuss is was "Jesus" divine or was he a man, who taught us the divinity within ourselves?
I’m a Christian and you don’t sound rude to me.